Recently, Mark O'Connor
launched another tirade about the Suzuki method. (Seehttp://markoconnorblog.blogspot.com/)
Want to know the truth? Watch an interview from 2006 with Mr. Kendall. He... Manager's
Choice
Long story short - there is NO
perfect method working for everyone. Each of the methods has it's pros and cons
for each teacher to work and each student to 'digest' :)
I think what all these people
rushing to defend the Suzuki method are neglecting to realize is that at first
O'Connor was just defending himself against some really stupid statements from
those affiliated with the Suzuki method. Yeah, he's gotten rather vociferous
after the fact, but many of his criticisms of the method are completely valid.
Whether or not it was formed as a cult, here's an experiment you can do. Go to
a long-time Suzuki instructor and tell them that you think another method would
probably be best for your child to learn by... then step back and wait for all
the forceful, quasi-religious ramblings that will take place about how the
Suzuki method is perfect for EVERYBODY. It's certainly become a cult of musical
philosophy whether or not that was the original intent.
I agree with Arpineh that there is no perfect method for everybody.
It is horses for courses one
method does not suit all. I am an Orff Schulwerk teacher of music education,
it's enough for me and I love the results it brings. I am mindful that its not
for everyone nor for every student to learn this way as much as I'd like it to
be.
I actually agree with all of
John's interview really! We are grabbing clips of it and going to use it to
bolster our message. What I am upset about mostly is what he did a long time
ago, supporting this movement to such an extreme that he himself didn't test on
students before "evangelizing it." He even says in the filmed
interviews in question that Japanese students are far different than American
students - those are his sentiments on the interview. You have to wonder when
you are looking at his interview, what was he thinking for about three decades!
In my most recent blog "Was the Suzuki Method formulated by a Cult,"
of course the research exonerates Kendall as being in the cult mostly (He
doesn't call him Dr. Suzuki ever - even in the interviews... never mentioned
the Einstein and Casals connection in his academic book, but it doesn't
exonerate him from being equally fanatic about Suzuki that even he himself
didn't think was going to work really. I talk about a few reasons for the
fanaticism, but it is obvious by his own writing, he acknowledge the Suzuki
"cultism" as "dangerous" in the 1960s and 70s in his book.
Even on this filmed interview in question, he chose the word
"clannish" to describe the Suzuki movement. Well, that is pejorative
when talking about music education - by any definition - especially when it is
coming from him. It is all very interesting, when he talks about Suzuki being
opposite of Waldorf for instance. That is an argument I have had with I don't
know how many Suzuki teachers as some claim a Waldorf concept connection. Now I
don't have to argue it! I am just going to play them the John Kendall filmed
interview here! And loop it! Also, I found it fascinating at the end, he was
really getting into "rhythm" for learning to play. Wow! He was
catching up to my concepts - maybe one of the reasons why he really liked the
O'Connor Method and asked to see copies before he passed away.
Adam, I guess you could say that I
tried your "turn the other cheek" approach when it comes to the
Suzuki doctrine, but I have seen too many kids suffer from both Suzuki, and me
not being vocal enough about how it is ruining string playing and the damage it
has caused to creativity in our string world. Of course my biggest detractors
in this thing are people who couldn't compose a concerto or symphony, improvise
a solo on stage professionally, or lead an ensemble with their original music
if their life depended on it. So consider the source. In 50 years, really no
top classical soloist out of Suzuki training let alone how in the world is that
Method going to produce any creative musician. So Suzuki is of zero help as to
what we need to get out of the log jam. For serious classical students I would
go back to traditional teaching. But I really think that my American Classical
approach is going to get the kids interested in strings music with their heart
and soul along with their intellect! Once that happens the sky's the limit boys
and girls! Thanks Adam - and onwards!
The topic of this thread above had
to do with the 2nd part of a two-part blog, "The John Kendall Factor"
and "What Did John Kendall Really Think". I just want to make sure
that folks knew that that the nature of the blog is focused on "cultism,'
the kind that Kendall points out as existing within Suzuki from the beginning
and how it is dangerous. Here is the first part - extremely fascinating. Quite
a few researchers have contributed the majority of this to us in order to write
this eye-opening article. Part I.
I am a vocalist, early childhood
educator and children's choir director so I cannot speak from experience on
private instrumental study. However, as an educator I feel I am somewhat of a
researcher as well. I have been to conferences where I have seen fans so very
dedicated to one method of teaching. I like researching what is best for me and
what I am trying to accomplish with my students. I observe results. This means
I may choose to infuse parts of a particular pedagogy into my instruction that
work best for my students. I have found a combined approach works great for me
depending on the needs of the student. I am so thankful for all the varied
approaches to music education since everyone learns differently.
I pit my own teaching results
against any method. I have created my own. I have particular purposes to my
teaching that won't match your own philosophy. So be it.
To adhere to anything that makes your life easier in terms of teaching
practices, I think is silliness. If you're not working hard and failing much of
the time, you're not learning very much. People "blindly" follow
Suzuki, Orff, Kodaly, Gordon, Dalcroze, others. If you have not thought deeply
about why (and what) you teach the sequence of learning you do, you can't be
doing very well no matter whose method (I use this term loosely—most are
approaches and not logically sequenced) you use. Personally, I believe the best
is borne out by the children's level of music achievement across a broad
spectrum of abilities, and based on the most outstanding research in music
education.
I've been studying this whole idea
about music education since I went to college back in the seventies and had a
disastrous time there. Granted, I'm wise enough now to recognize that some of
that disaster was my own fault, but I've been fascinated by the theories,
methodologies, etc. of how all of us learn music, from someone who can't speak
yet to doctoral students.
Suzuki certainly is not the only approach to music education that is spoken of
with messaianic zeal. I've spoken to Dalcroze and Orff teachers who have tried
to convince me that 'their' way is the best way. I am reluctant to use the work
'cult' to describe any group, yet we are supposedly the experts and we should
know what we're doing based on years of open-minded study.
Ignorance isn't restricted to methodology. There are some teachers who are
woefully ignorant when it comes to music styles, as an example (There are still
some teachers out there who teach Louis Armstrong by playing "What a
Wonderful World" and totally ignore the Hot 5 and 7 recordings; frankly,
they don't even know these recordings exist). There are college students who
get four-year degrees without playing Berg, Sessions, or someone like Morton
Feldman or Earle Brown.
I'd love to see a school where a music student studying for an 'ed' degree is
told flat out that any method such as Orff, etc. was not created to turn
children into professional musicians, or even musicians with advanced skills.
They were created to expose children to music, get them actually making it on
several levels, and to give them another avenue to expand their brains. Each
'ed' student should have at least six months of exposure to Dalcroze, Kodaly
and Orff methods to learn for himself/herself what experiences children can
have. They should know enough to choose not only based on their own experiences
doing this, but which approach speaks to them personally. We are not machines
after all, and if children want to have music in their lives as something
positive and fun, the teacher reflects that adventure.
With that said, I've worked with Suzuki students who had few problems making
music on an advanced level including reading. They were fortunate to have
excellent teachers who really studied the 'system' and knew what skills needed
to be introduced at the appropriate time.
Join me and my guests Dale Morris
Jr. Patrice Jackson, Alex DePue and David Wallace as we talk about music
competition and contests. Is it healthy for kids, does it make a difference?
In this video clip, there is a lot more going on than meets the eye. Right
before I stepped on stage to perform on this national television show, (one of
the awards for winning the Grand Master Fiddle Championships in 1975), my
mother told me that if things go well, and I get a lot of attention that the
family could move to Nashville without our dad and live on the money that comes
in from music. When i realized that Porter Wagoner's house band was not only
missing chord changes, bass lines, but they decided that loud steel guitar
chimes played through my entire tune and in my range was a good idea, somehow I
saw my young life in music crumble as I played. The fact that I was able to
play this well under that kind of pressure obviously made for one of the top
high-pressure contest players of my era. It somehow worked for me, but are
competitions for everyone. Let's discuss at 4:15 to 5:15 today at the Berklee
Performance Center!
I have been blogging this last
year on the subject of why the violin scene has been depleted with regards to
creativity and nearly 60,000 readers have looked in on them in total so far.
This was one that got a lot of attention. Because the Suzuki method is by far
and away the dominant teaching method over the last 50 years, making for a
virtual monopoly in most small and mid sized cities in the U.S., I lay the
problem mostly with Suzuki's methodology and learning principles because of
that obvious fact. But there are other contributors.
not a fan of the suzuki method,
have had a few students who come to me who can play at a very high level but
their reading level is a lot lower and they get very frustrated, (piano
students). I don't have any method i use. I have so many students that are so
different that i teach each one a different way, especially my special needs
students.
Bruce Molsky and David Wallace get
things kicked off at Club Passim for our nightly concerts during my Berklee
College String Camp Week. Fantastic evening of great music. The sitting
concertmaster of the Boston Symphony was in attendance at Club Passim tonight!
Now that is cool!
Adam, I would be fuming mad too if
I was her - actually I was fuming, when I was a "Suzuki Parent." (oh
yes it gets worse!). My kid and my sister's kid who I paid for Suzuki lessons,
both "went there" and yes I came face to face with it about 10 years
ago - several years before I physically authored my method. No, I read the
Nurtured by Love and bought it hook line and sinker just like every other
Suzuki parent and most teachers I would assume. But yes, when I put it together
that it was pack full of lies and his bio was made up, you can't imagine how
upset I was. I figured it out when both kids after two years wanted to quit
violin and from two different Suzuki teachers! Since I was traveling a lot,
kid's mom and my sister had to do most of the learning with the kids... but I
did check it out a lot and really couldn't believe it when I did. I just kept
my mouth shut thinking that this must be good, it must be good... And of course
- it is not. That is when I went back to review the biography to figure out who
this guy from Japan was, and realized that he invented everything about his
life. Once you know what to look for, and basically I was looking for a musical
fraud by that time, then everything came into place. Other researches later got
involved it all came pouring out.
Now about the blogs and "crossing the line." The vast majority of
information was coming from researchers, newspaper clips, books and real live
Suzuki teacher's quotes. So I am not sure what part is crossing the line if it
is quoted. It would be good to find out from your folks there, and if it is
wrong, we can provided a retraction. What I don't want is the wrong information
out there. That has been the problem, Suzuki wrote wrong information and it has
messed a lot of folks up, like my family. And countless - really, thousands of
students I know who have been through my camps such as the one this week in
Boston that I am holding - 250 string players are here. I hear the victim of
the Suzuki Method constantly.
Anyway, yes, find out what information was wrong or bad, and we can address it
certainly, but in no way am I interested in any lying or even embellishing in
any of my blogs. Suzuki did plenty of lying and embellishing on his own. The
violin world does not need more of that, we need less of it. In pedagogy we
actually need none of it. But it would be interesting to find out what aspect
of the blogs crossed the line their opinion, or they feel is not truthful. If
they could provide the exact quotes - that would be helpful. If they are just
saying that I had a lot of nerve to reveal the true story - well yes. I suppose
I do. It is in my character to stand up to injustices. Let's look into it! I
have a few more blogs coming out. Since Suzuki used Casals as an endorsement, I
found out that he never endorsed Suzuki or his Method. That will be a future
blog - the research on it is quite clear. I hate to see frauds in music
frankly, especially if children are the recipient of the fraud. There is one
thing for certain, 100 percent of my bio is true! I am no fraud! You can debate
if I am a great player or not if you want, but the record of accomplishment is
clear, and there is no lying on my bio. Here read it for yourself! Thanks Adam
Adam, a few things. I am not
defending - just explaining the information if someone didn't get on their
first read. I always encourage people to read it again. So many things become
more clear on the 2nd time through the information if they are reading the
first time with too much emotion perhaps. Just look at the facts of it and make
up your mind on your own time, is what I would like to see. I also do not think
it is a tirade and disagree with that characterization. I am just interested in
the correct information and in those blogs, a lot of research went into them.
The cultism blog, the information has been coming in on that for a very long
time, and it was carefully constructed over a good amount of time. I suppose
the debunking the Casals endorsement in the next blog will also be another case
for shooting the messenger by some too, but I am not sure why people have to do
that. If they have reason to believe that Casals did like the Suzuki Method,
allow those to come forward with that information, rather than shooting the
messenger as you say. But it is one of the most fraudulent uses of a person's
name in the endorsement of a product I have ever seen in music. And it was all
done after these great men died. Just repulsive behavior. So, I don't know what
to tell you Adam... the research has already been done and the articles are
good. Good enough in fact to have just received the invitation to a major music
education monthly magazine to write a column about string education, and this
offer was based on my blog articles. So there you go. A lot of people are
liking that I am coming forward on it!
...and I am one of those people
that likes what Mark is coming forward with. My first string teacher was a
Suzuki teacher... actually a Suzuki teacher-trainer, so I was pretty close to
the method for awhile (also a close relative and I love her dearly). But guess
what? She didn't teach me using the Suzuki method! I was 13 years old, already
read music fluently on the piano, and had was listening to hours of classical
music a day. Sure we used some of the Suzuki pedagogy, and I'm sure some of the
clever little tricks used for teaching techniques had their roots back with
some Suzuki teacher or another. But really, I was just taught as fast as I
could learn, which was pretty fast. The next year I was touring Europe with a
select youth orchestra!
Not every parent can be heavily involved in their kids life. These days kids
neither recognize nor like much of the early Suzuki repertoire. Given my
success and the success of many 10+ year old students I've personally observed
there's obviously zero need to start kids on any instruments super-young, but
if you really want to, guess what the perfect instrument is? Piano. I don't
know how many blank-faced middle-school and high-school aged former Suzuki
students I've had to slowly and painfully go over basic music theory concepts
with, but it's more than a few. But absolutely NOBODY I've ever taught violin
or viola that first learned a little bit of piano is at all fazed by the fact
that E# is F and other similar concepts.
To get back to the initial inquiry
about John Kendall in all of this... and the fact that I agreed and liked very
much his filmed interview that was provided here, had a few motivations back in
the beginning of his Suzuki era, one is to lower the entry level for string
teaching from 4th grade to a much lower grade. He thought with the new and
exotic nature of this Suzuki movement he could create that. It would have been
a big feather in his cap. But instead of any lowering of public school string
programs entry levels from John's era of 4th grade/10 year-old beginning
students, we have seen it all erode from that entry level point in schools
dramatically, as strings themselves in the Suzuki era have eroded in importance
and relevance in our society over the last 50 years. Perlman, Heifetz,
Stradivarius, were nearly house hold names in the 60s. The Philadelphia Orch
had a nationwide audience and on the radio weekly etc... Instead of making
strings more relevant in our culture, they have waned.
Can anyone think of a classical music composition for violin that you could
even imagine Perlman playing at Carnegie Hall that was composed in the last 50
years that could be a feature piece? Maybe Red Violin Chaconne? That is a
shameful stat. And compared to every single 50-year block in violin history, it
is a very pitiful statistic. But what did we get in return, we got a bunch of
private Suzuki music schools instead, and I believe that was not really the intention
of the Suzuki Method in the first place. The Suzuki Method was designed for
masses of kids ie Japan in big school programs with hundreds playing together
(the famous formations of 200 to 700 kids), or at least that was the idea of
Kendall's to bring it here for public schools. Whole schools playing like that
together - the vision for it was really never met. That was Kendall's hope
though. I never saw anything in it other than a circus myself. and a very good
way to end the annual show at school or string camp with a finale. But anything
beyond that is not constructive to learn how to play music.
Private schools are more about about serious study and should be. That is where
the culture of it all went awry. And the fact that Suzuki produces such a very
small percentage of professional musicians from their enrollment and almost no
world class classical music soloists, if any, (let alone any player-composers)
is the issue that we deal with today from these private studios. It is what I
have described as a misfit for our culture and far from what we needed all
along. We don't need hundreds of thousands of ex Suzuki violin students that
dislike the violin altogether... We need a healthier string culture with more
creative souls working to make it what it should be again. Like it was before
the last 50 years and the hundreds of years before it, like before Suzuki came
along and changed it for the worse. I make no bones about, I think that A New
American School of String Playing could come in and rescue this, and save the
day. Sure, my Method is a part of that, but there are some very talented people
in American string playing now, all contributing to it. I just returned from an
orchestra rehearsal this morning of two of my Orchestra Book II Method Book pieces,
and the kids sounds fantastic on them here in Boston. (they will perform
Thursday night here) They are also doing pieces by Eugene Friesen and DBR for
instance... these men are major contributors to An American School of String
Playing that has never been given ground yet in academia, until now perhaps. I
think we should seize the moment and go!
Catch my discussion at the Berklee
Performance Center in about an hour at 4:15 when I will talk about American
Classical music with DBR, Tracy Silverman, Darol Anger and Eugene Friesen.
There is an opening for new ideas and career paths!
#musiced #musedchat #suzuki a
cult?
Jeffery, et al, Why are we still ignoring the most prolific music education
researcher whose work spans half a century? This prolific author has developed
a music learning theory based on how children learn, NOT ON HOW TEACHERS ARE
TAUGHT TO TEACH (especially by such limited approaches and content as Suzuki,
Orff, Kodaly).
Teaching SO-MI songs? Cut me a break! My PreK kids sing in Phrygian 7/8, B
section is 6/8 ("I like to be in America"), and then switch back to
7/8. And, they can do this independently!
When I hear Twinkle done in sixteenth and eighth notes, I scream inside my head
and try to leave the room. Children are far more capable and can achieve the
same technical skills with GOOD music. Stop murdering their creativity by
playing the same song a bunch of different ways whilst still maintaining the
same tonality, meter, and style. Swinging it or changing it to minor would be
one thing, but these tiny degrees of rhythmic change are not not not very very
very happy happy happy making making making me me me. It makes that much sense
to me! We have no idea how capable our students are when we pigeon hole them
into one method or another. If you're not studying how each child is learning,
and stretching yourself in the process—which is excruciating at times—you're
not allowing them to achieve at their highest potential. How do I know? I know
my children's music aptitudes. How? I measure them. Each has at least 9
different ones. I measure at least 3 that I think are most important to me
relative to the time each test takes away from instruction. But without such a
measure, I would have never discovered many children with high aptitudes who
were hiding in the weeds, not practicing, or not trying, not achieving near
their potential. I could kick their butts a bit. Others, I nurture along either
tonally, or rhythmically, or both, depending on their strengths and needs.
Orff teaches musical exploration. It's like letting a kid play in the woods
without an adult to talk about much. They don't understand tonality and meter
very well and they're just hitting on bars. For goodness sakes, leave the
"bad" sounding notes on the xylophone! They can learn what sounds
good by learning what sounds "bad" against it. Not only do I use the
full diatonic scale, I use the black notes as well. Wow, all of a sudden, we
have a dominant chord in minor!! Is that too much to try with kids who already
understand minor? and the functions that belong inside it? Why I give kids the
harmonic understanding early is so they have the readiness to create and
improvise, not just explore (which is an often thoughtless musical behavior).
Why is Orff, Kodaly, and Dalcroze are still dominant music ed. cornerstones in
a world where diversity and research-based instruction should be key. What
remains the same among all good methods is that they must work with how a child
learns—not how they can conform to a method. Having said that, a logical
sequence of appropriate content and skills is a must to give children the best
chance of success.
What of the outstanding music education research? It is virtually unrecognized
and it confounds me so. Where are the scientist music educators who can prove
their work—not by anecdote, but by research?
That's my rant!
[Actually, I can do this more PC or professionally too. I'm not always so
pedantic. I encourage the debate and love that people are so passionate about
this.]
When the O'Connor Method teachers
and teacher trainers played this orchestral arrangement tonight at one of the
Berklee Camp performances, I got a little choked up about the moment. It
usually happens at these camps for me, but at least I make it to Wednesday or
Thursday before I have some tears - it happened Tuesday - Oh My Goodness! So
beautiful and heartfelt. I told the teachers afterwards, that the couple
hundred young people at this camp this week are the lucky ones. They get to
discover all of this here around us! Just think about the tens of thousands who
will quit violin this year. Who will never get to experience something like our
camp! You, each one of you can take this back to your neighborhoods, your
communities and bring the kids this magic we have created with strings, the
magic you feel right now.
Eric, I agree that the three
methods you name are far and away superior to Suzuki. My O'Connor Method
approaches learning the violin from the American String School. The problem
with all of those old methods is that they left out arguably the most important
music created in the last 100 years - American music - and that is a problem.
Strings have paid a huge price for not being included in the culture. When
Mozart was writing music, he was actually composing in a very popular Viennese
style that people liked back then... American music today is the equivalent,
and the current pedagogy ignores very fundamental things for musicians today
like rhythm and groove. Most classical violinist player's sense of rhythm is
just God awful. And it is simply the poor training they received that left out
whole sectors of the technique needed to be a good 21st Century musician. I
think there is a way to do more, without confusing the students with too many
aptitude tests etc.... American musicians have sorted it out for centuries (the
different levels of musical developments) and my research draws on those
experiences into pedagogy. It is working! We would like to have you come to a
teacher training and join in this discovery!
About the Suzuki cult. Did you read the blog? It sounds like you didn't. I will
reprint the link here - read both part I and and part II and let me know what
you think. But before you have an opinion whether it is real or not, read the
blog! You have to read in order to know. No short cuts to educating ourselves -
even about cults that thrive amongst us! Have you ever heard the term the
Suzuki "True Believers?" I noticed in John Kendall's interview (did
you notice?) that Suzuki informed Kendall to choose the teachers with a gleam
in their eye to be his front line and teacher trainers in America! Wow! That is
the criteria - a "gleam in the eye." Whew... Here is the link.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
What a great conversation! But
let's think through the vocabulary everyone is tossing out.
Dr. Suzuki has a pedagogy which is developed into a Suzuki curriculum. It's the
curriculum that is the method, not the person.
What is Dr. Suzuki right about? What are those points about Dr. Suzuki's
thinking that should cut across and be part of all method systems?
1. Children learn language by hearing, then feeling, then imitating, then
doing, then applying, then seeing the symbols, then learning the names of the
symbols. (This is great Kodaly, too!)
2. Pieces should be memorized. I'm on a mission to get rid of the word
'memorized" and replace it with "learned" It's learned when one
can sing it or play it with out the aide of symbols.
3.Perform for others and keep your performance repertoire up to date.
There should be a part of Dr. Suzuki in every one's pedagogical tool kit. Find
what he does that speaks to you as a music educator and incorporate it in your
methods.
One of my sons learned violin through the Suzuki method. I specially choose the
Suzuki method because I had watched him acquire language and teach himself to
read at age four. I knew he was never at risk for not learning to read. He grew
up a confident reader and performer and learned good music from the beginning.
This is another thing Kodaly and Suzuki have in common. They believe good music
education must include from the beginning teaching discrimination between good
music and junk.
If the pedagogues have stood the test of time, chances are they have valuable
theories and ideas that are worthy of still being incorporated.
And don't forget to sort through the difference between person and method!
"Dr." Suzuki. He is not
a PhD. He didn't' go to college. Part of the fraud marketing he did in his bio.
We shouldn't address him as that in educational circles. Thanks.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
To Eric,
I know exactly what you are saying about Kodaly. But when Kodaly is the basis,
the students are well-grounded internally, that they can learn and sing much
more than the perscribed Kodaly curriculum. A music education class today
requires to go further because the children's enviornments are filled with
sounds and experiences much different than Kodaly's school children.
I wish music education would even have Kodaly. My experiences with music
education is that it is not education at all but singing one or two songs a
year from lyric sheets illeagaly distributed because the kids only will do
Taylor Swift or Justin Beiber. So much of what is going on in the music
classrooms today do not even qualify as "meaningful" by scientists
and researchers trying to determine the benefits of music education.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
WOW!
I really don't want to make an enemy of you Mark or push you or anyone away.
Clearly, honorary doctorates, which some people choose to use. And some people
choose not to be called "Dr." when they have earned their degrees.
Your point is well-taken about cleaning up vocabulary in music education
circles. I guess to be friendly to all points of view in this discussion..
Should it be "Dr." but only honorary Suzuki?
Best wishes and take some time to look at the American violin duos and trios
that our company publishes.
I have honorary doctorate, but I
wouldn't ask anybody in education circles to title me "Dr." and
adress me that way. I don't believe anybody would who has one.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
I have known people with honorary
doctorates use them and people with earned doctorates not use the title.
Point I was making was that different individuals have different perspectives
and different cultural backgrounds, etc. Perhaps, Suzuki didn't use it but
people around him choose to use it for him .... I don't know. .. and it doesn't
really matter.
Your point of that it is honorary and not earned was an important point to
make, which I also acknowledged.
Brahms certainly didn't! All he
did was sent a thank you letter at first, lol. Then of course was later
persuaded to make the grander gesture of composing the Academic Festival
Overture. I can't imagine Brahms styling himself as Dr. Johannes Brahms! Thank you
Mark for doing likewise.
Janet, I don't that is the truth.
Name one educator who asks his/her colleagues to refer to them as
"Dr." from just being an honorary doctorate. Please provide their
contact info and bio or byline please. And Suzuki titled himself "Dr."
Suzuki in his autobiography he wrote and his wife transcribed, "Nurtured
By Love." So to answer your question about Suzuki, he was the source of
it. Could I know more about Suzuki than you perhaps? You have not read my blog?
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
For Mark,
Please read what I have written. I wrote 'people' and you read 'educator'.
Furthermore, I acknowledged you and the point you made about the
"Dr." in Suzuki. I further wrote about Suzuki in later comments,
having dropped the "Dr."
I accepted the point you made, acknowledged that your point was a good one, AND
changed my writing to reflect support of your point.
Was I correct that your response to my comment and change in behavior is to
post to me, that you challenge I am dishonest about reporting what my
professional and personal experiences are?
Maybe you feel under attack because of the original posting, which I thought,
by the way, was a bit over the top. Or maybe, you just passionately disagree
with people who do not hold similar experiences or opinions. I'm not sure why
there is such an attack about my posts, especially given that I listened to
something you said and let it influence me. There is simple no reason to show
anger towards me.
What matters to excellent music educators is to be able to present their
positions about topics in a way that will influence people who are listening.
It's never an interesting conversation or dialogue when participants are being
accused of lying or being ignorant.
Janet, there is a lot wrong with
Suzuki, not the least of which is the fraud and lies about his credentials. You
called him a PhD, this is an educational forum so the context is important. You
said that a few honorary doctorates like myself ask to be titled
"Dr." when referred to. As some kind of defense for Suzuki wanting it
for him. I simply would like to see a case of that, or why did you bring it up?
You mentioned it, I would like to see that in academic circles? Wondering if I
should ask the Suzuki folks to address me as Doctor too? That was a joke... But
maybe not!
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Mark, please don't say what I
"said"; just read what I said.
AND, I never included you in this, which I am quoting from your post: 'You said
that a few honorary doctorates like myself ask to be titled "Dr."
when referred to."
If you wish to "expose" Suzuki, fine, but, there is just no place for
what you are saying about me or reporting what you "think" I wrote.
I happened to regard for your performances and method books. What gives with
your posts?
Simply put, Mark, you have no basis for your "diatribe" against me or
my postings, so please just stop it.
I'm really baffled by some of the
reactions to Mark's article, especially those who are outraged without
disputing any facts; but rather, only tone, which was pretty academic compared
to just about anything I read on the internet these days. I see Mark's point as
addressing the "where are we and where are we going?" issue in string
pedagogy.
He alludes to the bigger issue earlier in the thread with this thought.
"Can anyone think of a classical music composition for violin that you
could even imagine Perlman playing at Carnegie Hall that was composed in the
last 50 years that could be a feature piece?" Now why is that? Is this
Suzuki's fault? Perhaps not but the Suzuki method is narrowly focused and at
least one component of the real problem: traditional string pedagogy which has
ignored folk and jazz. This is ridiculous considering that even most classical
music is derived or inspired by folk traditions. We became lazy and dismissive
toward "less refined" forms that have now distilled themselves in to
high art (jazz, rock, bluegrass, etc).
Classical composers were increasingly pianists by the 20th century (Bartok,
Shostakovitch, Copland, Bernstein, Barber, Stravinsky, etc.) who increasingly
dictated every expressive nuance with meticulous score instructions (how soft
is 13 P's?) versus previous eras where performance practices allowed
interpretation and improvisation that reflected the skills and styles of
regional players. Over time, ritornello's and soli sections from the
baroque/classical era gradually became "through composed" as well as
the cadenzas of many of the great concertos with students relying on classic
interpretations of the greats versus continuing the tradition of participating
in the composition by putting there own stamp on it. One could write a well
researched article on this process but modern string pedagogy is calcified in
the past.
MMA fighters study mixed martial arts because karate alone will not give you
the skills to defeat a wrestler or jiu jitsu specialist. One must master a variety
of skills to stay competitive. I think what Mark is arguing is that string
players become mixed martial artists on their instruments if they are to remain
artistically relevant, and most importantly have fun, rich, musical
experiences. Not only are there no recent Carnegie Hall worthy violin
concertos, but there is no one under 50 in the audience! That's a huge problem
that the Suzuki method may not cause but does absolutely nothing to solve, cult
or no cult.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Excellent points. And, I would
like to suggest that its not only modern string pedagogy that is calcified;
there certainly appears a lot of calcified piano pedagogy. What of voice and
other instruments as well....are they locked in approaches to learning.
And all musicians need to be "MMA fighters" in today's world, able to
perform, transcend and cross genres.
Concerning Janet's response to me,
my question is very straight forward. She referred to "Dr." Suzuki. I
asked why she did that as doesn't have a PhD, and she still has not answered.
It seems easy enough. Hardly a diatribe. I save the diatribes for the Suzuki
Method, not Janet certainly. Could Janet provide an answer why she calls him
"Dr."? She defended him and his method, and I have found that his
defenders and some cult members do refer to him as "Dr." I just
didn't know if she was calling him "Dr." because of her assumption he
had PhD, or did she call him "Dr." because she is a cultist? I just
wrote a huge article about cultism and Suzuki... And I assume she is writing in
about that blog. I was just wondering who I was writing to here: 1. Somebody
who who is misinformed about his biography, or 2. A a cultist follower that
John Kendall alluded to in his book and that I reprinted in my article.
"Was the Suzuki Method formulated as a Cult?"
Devin is spot on. He calls it
exactly like it is. Most teachers are blind to the part that is missing. They
can't see the missing part because they themselves never experienced the
missing part. But why do all of the students have to miss out, taking from teachers
who refuse to retrain and update their teaching skills? We offer teacher
training in my Method. Just today, a violinist who played in the Met orchestra
(THE Met) was in our teacher training course here in Boston. She came up to me
today and introduced herself. She said a mouthful of stuff. One is that her 10
year-old Suzuki trained daughter was thinking about quitting before this week
at my camp. Two is that she said the Suzuki program at her daughter's private
school is going down the tubes and the kids don't like it. And three, after the
3rd day of teacher training, she will begin to teach the O'Connor Method at
that school next year. She carries a lot of weight there because she is so
accomplished, being a former member of perhaps one of the greatest orchestras
in the world. So the back and forth with Janet is underneath where the
conversation should be and I agree with Adam on that.
For anyone that was at our Berklee concert tonight featuring 6 of our faculty
at the camp, there is no question that things are moving in a great direction.
It is just a matter of when on the bigger scale. I would say the sooner the
better so we can make strings relevant in music again. Janet wrote this above:
" there certainly appears a lot of calcified piano pedagogy. What of voice
and other instruments as well...."
Last time I checked the "voice" is relevant to our culture. So are
keys! There is a vast amounts of vocal training and incredible amounts of vocal
styles, and many of these vocalists take their craft very seriously. That is a
far cry from putting 90 percent of beginning violin in the Suzuki-baroque music
basket. It is just not even in the same universe as a comparison. And that is
what is so troubling. People are not really thinking it through sometimes. It
is not calcified. Simply put - no way.There is a lot of pianists out there with
a lot of different styles, who are working and contributing to the musical
culture. I just don't see it as an analogy comparing that to how strings have
suffered in our culture over the last 50 years during the Suzuki era. I think
it is time to let Suzuki go and give something else a chance to turn things
around... there is nothing in Suzuki to keep around frankly. The sequential
learning with tunes is in my Method and that concept has been around for
centuries. Certainly not his idea. The over involvement with parents taking
lessons is a bad idea. Especially for 21st century kids who are far more
independent than those of the 1950s in Japan where these tests were done on Suzuki
with Kendall. Twinkle is not a good first tune. My "Boil 'em Cabbage
Down" is far superior as a first tune. Suzuki spends nearly 100% of his
first several books in a musical era that is 250 years old. A method is tied to
its materials. No creativity! Improvisation! Even all of the detached bowing in
the first book is a bad. Not musical. It is just not a good fit - none of it.
A matter of fact... I just thought
of something when I was writing the last entry that I had not quite put
together before. Suzuki's main job was working for the American Armed Services
between 1946 - 1953 when America occupied Japan. Music teachers were sought out
all over Japan to "westernize" little kids - most of them
"orphaned." Hmmm. Orphans meaning no parents to create this
"triangle" that Suzuki is known for with teacher/parent/student.
There were hundreds of thousands of orphans in Japan. Maybe millions. Japan
lost three-million people in the war. Their invasion of China in '33 to
attacking America in 1941... till the end of the war. There can be only two
scenarios. This doubles down on the fact that the totality of his Method was
actually created in Imperial Japan in the 1930s when there were no orphans and
there were doting parents around to learn violin with the kids. Or this was
something he made up just for America, may perhaps to sell extra violins, full
size violins to the parents. Another way to make money. Wow.... I think we
should all think about that one for a bit. It doesn't square.
It's definitely interesting and
provocative. However, I'm not sure if most teachers have the calories to burn
entertaining various machinations about the origins and intents of the
program's founders regardless of importance. Ultimately, the question comes
down to whether it's an effective method. I think it is but only in the sense
that Mary Kay makes quality skin care products.They work as a "A trusted
global name in skin care" but as their own website states...it's also an
"unparalleled business opportunity". Your article could have just as
easily been titled "Suzuki Method...the Mary Kay of violin methods.
Neither are diabolical in my view unless there is an absence of choice...and
choice is a bit slim in the world of strings.
Devin, the biggest problem with
Suzuki and his followers is they don't get their system as a problem. I believe
they know it is an "amateur" learning method and they are proud of
it! If I called it the Mary Kay of student violin training, I believe that most
would agree with that - and accept it. Frankly it is way too kind, and an
insult to Mary Kay. The last time I checked, Mary Kay never hurt anyone and
destroyed their dreams of being a musician and stomped on their passion of
being a real artist. May Kay - I could use their product, and still go on stage
and play by hind end off and get people on their feet for a standing ovation. I
think my job in this whole conversation is to point out the damage Suzuki has
caused in the string playing environment because all of us on this panel, I am
the one who has worked with tens of thousands of students over the last 20
years. No player-composers out of the Suzuki Method... that is very, very bad.
The creativity was trained right out of those little Suzuki kids through
memorization - repeat - mimic - memorex - ear training.
I have to admit that I lean
towards OConnor's take on Suzuki. Not that Suzuki does not have many positives
(good technique, ear first, great for very small children), I personally have
taught many kids who were emotionally scarred from their Suzuki experience and
had tremendous fear of failure. This I personally have zero tolerance for in
teaching. Nothing wrong with self discipline, but achieving this by fear is a
paradigm that is horribly outdated I think. Transparency: I teach multi-styles
with a large component of improvisation (where fear has little educational
value). Maybe I am a bit slanted, as I am not trying to crank out Classical
technical superstars, but rather superstar human beings who love music and keep
it as a part of their lives for life!
#musedchat #musiced
Mark,
I'm mostly on board with everything you're saying. I did read your blog and
just consider "cult" to be too pejorative. I never indicated that
Orff, Kodaly were better than Suzuki. All are still a far cry from what
possible when well-researched methods based on how children best learn are
taken into account.
I reiterate just a bit of what I posted above:
"Why are we still ignoring the most prolific music education researcher
whose work spans half a century? This prolific author has developed a music
learning theory based on how children learn, NOT ON HOW TEACHERS ARE TAUGHT TO
TEACH (especially by such limited approaches and content as Suzuki, Orff,
Kodaly)."
Nobody responded to this and I'm curious as to why?
At the heart of this, aren't we ultimately talking about the efficacy of music
learning methods? If I may ask, what is it that distinguishes the O'Connor
method? (Just asking the question. Not meant to be inflammatory at all.)
Eric, well then you will have to
blame John Kendall himself for the use of the word as he applied it to Suzuki
followers. If he had not called Suzuki follows "cultism" and how
"dangerous" he thought that was... I would have probably not written
the article. I will quote John Kendall right here from his 1966 book. The Part
II blog essentially ends with this quote, but I will repeat it here again just
to make sure that you saw it and so that you can point the finger properly to
Kendal for the pejorative:
“although there is still a certain amount of controversy and criticism of some
aspects of the Talent Education movement. The dangers of “cultism” and narrow
dogmatic interpretations of the pedagogical approach have not disappeared.”
Hopefully that settles that. Now. "What is it that distinguishes the
O'Connor Method?" Maybe the best thing is to point you to another blog on
my site. It is called "Confessions of a Former Suzuki Teacher by Pamela
Wiley - May 2013"
Get back to me on it. The article is pretty thorough regarding the first two
books of the Method. Great analysis and I could not have said it any better -
she is a 40-year teachers so a lot of experience to draw from. The other place
I want to point to you is the website www.oconnormethod.com. There is some
fantastic info there. Thanks, MOC
(retyped when more awake here at
the string camp!) Geoffrey Fitzhugh Perry just wrote: "I have to admit
that I lean towards OConnor's take on Suzuki. Not that Suzuki does not have
many positives (good technique, ear first, great for very small children), I
personally have taught many kids who were emotionally scarred from their Suzuki
experience and had tremendous fear of failure."
I couldn't agree more with Geoffrey's comments about emotionally scarring of
Suzuki Students. I have seen this up close, quite literally - thousands of
times. It is bizarre that it is happening to that degree. There are less kids
scarred from competitive wrestling in school or something similar probably! It
is just completely crazy. How does one get scarred from playing guitar and
guitar lessons for instance. What can one say... I am not on board about
agreeing that Suzuki is good ear training. Memorization is not ear training
needed to be a good musician. That is why so many Suzuki students can't play
off the page when they are adults... because the kind of ear training they got
in Suzuki is not useful. Consequently Suzuki is not good for young kids.
Anything that is a "doctrine" and especially if it does not work
well... is not a good fit for really young kids. The really young ones need
more creativity and more fun, not just a technical regimen. But Geoffrey, I
couldn't agree with you more about the emotional scarring. Seen it a thousand
time just at my own string camps...
Devin, somebody told me about
their possible analogy - the Target or Wallmart of violin methods being Suzuki.
I don't know about that. Target and Wallmart provide a great service to
millions of Americans and at discount rates. I don't see Suzuki lessons as any
cheaper than any other beginning violin lesson - either from traditional or
from the folk fiddlers. I suppose if Suzuki lessons were really low priced, you
could make an analogy for that. But once again. I have shopped at high priced
stores and at Target, and I just never think badly about myself after getting a
good deal at Target! Certainly not emotionally scarred as Geoffrey was alluding
to above regarding many Suzuki students he has seen. Besides, Target is
carrying my Christmas album this year for the first time "An Appalachian
Christmas" featuring Renee Flemming, James Taylor, Yo-Yo Ma, Jane Monheit,
Alison Krauss etc...I like the store for what it is! But once again you and I
have choices. We can choose to shop at Target or not. Or choose to use Mary Kay
products or not. In many small and medium size cities, there is only one choice
for violin training and that is Suzuki. That is bad for the kids and parents.
Having no choice is just fundamentally bad for Americans. That is why it is
frustrating that Suzuki got so big. We are all to blame for allowing it to I
think. While I am trying to fix the problem now by speaking out on it, I was
initially the part that supported it in a small way. I signed two kids up in my
family for Suzuki lessons about a dozen years ago - why? Because it was popular
and it was the only game in town where I lived in Southern California at that
time for beginning students. The kids and the family suffered from those
experiences and they were simply brought on by having limited choices or no
choice at all.
Good stuff Mark...thanks for
engaging. It's clear you're not getting "Teacher of the Year" award
at the next Suzuki conference and I share some of the concerns. However, many
school music programs are supported directly by student enrollment. Federal
dollars are determined by class attendance.
The popularity of Suzuki programs are what keep some music programs afloat in
many communities here is Los Angeles and all over the country. I've taught at
schools where local Suzuki programs act as feeder programs for middle school
orchestras. Without the 5 or 10 students who are already participating in
Suzuki then there may not be a school orchestra due to low attendance...and
that's all kinds of lame.
Obviously, you've distilled your method over many years and you'd like to see
it grow for noble reasons. What is your broader vision aside from the Suzuki
criticism? Clearly it's to see American styles woven in to the mainstream
learning environment. But how can that be achieved on a massive scale you
gesture toward in the media?
1. Is your goal to see the O'Connor method essentially franchised and replace
the Suzuki method nationwide through private teacher certified programs?
2. Is part of that plan to fold in the orchestral versions of your method to
rival or supplement other staples of school programs like Essential
Elements?...or perhaps implement a nationwide Berklee style American Roots
programs aided by a revolution in publishing by Hal Leonard and others that
emphasis American styles?
3. What would you like to see private instructors and school teachers do more
of since I'm interpreting your outspokenness to be a call to arms as opposed to
a myopic debunking of Suzuki? Start their own after school programs that
include focus on American styles?
I don't expect you to answer all of this for such a limited audience but these
are some of the questions that arise for teachers on the font lines caught
between your views on Suzuki and the realities of school programs and fighting
elimination, while still being tasked with providing quality, culturally
relevant instruction, which you and I definitely agree needs more emphasis
American music.
The music learned and performed by
the students at O'Connor/Berklee can take place in youth orchestras around the
country. Yes! A portion of it is in the O'Connor Method Book II, played here by
the wonderful New Jersey Youth Symphony. Fantastic Summer Program in Boston
this year and we will see you all next year!
Devon, I appreciate your three
questions. This post that we just made directly above, addresses one of them
(the New Jersey Youth Symphony rehearsing my Orchestra Book II pieces). I have
the orchestra series as a component to the Method which Suzuki never had. He
was neither a composer or arranger/orchestrator so it would have been
impossible largely for him to author such a component. That is why through the
famous Suzuki method, we are stuck with many children playing in unison as a
direct result to his method. We don't have 50 sax students playing in unison,
or 50 percussion students playing in unison, but we do violin unfortunately. He
did not have the artistic capability to write high quality music within a
string methodology. So it is unison Happy Farmer going away.
I would not confuse disregarding Suzuki and his mediocre method as not having
something beyond a "myopic" vision, certainly. Long range planning
and vision is what I have been all about for decades (I began my
internationally recognized string camps 20 years ago that have seen over 7,000
unique enrollments! They have made a difference on the scene!) My new term
"A New American School of String Playing" is one of those phrases
that embodies long ranging implications. Certainly not shortsighted. The
O'Connor Method can and is taking place in private studios with the solo books
and at this point after four years, tens of thousands of children are taking
the Method (a very good start - a much quicker start than Suzuki had, perhaps
because I am a well-known and a very successful artist and educator).
The O'Connor Method for Orchestra is now beginning to take place in some public
schools. There was a gathering of eight NYC high schools that performed pieces
out of my Orchestra Book II at the end of the school year last week actually. I
heard from a Brooklyn Public School official that is in charge of over a
thousand string kids just shortly after that mini festival. They wish to adopt
my Orchestra Book II into their program. I assumed he was from one of the eight
high schools in the mini festival, the timing was literally within a few days
of the event. He had not heard of the eight high schools getting together, and
missed it! This inquiry was from a completely different avenue! He is
interested in replacing out Essential Elements with my Orchestra Books... My
Book II was just released a few months ago. So that is a good sign that people
are talking about it and looking into it. I another case, the Orchestra Book I
and II are being used in the public schools in Kansas City area, and their high
school orchestra was just invited to Disney World. They played four pieces from
it there. A student here at my string camp just came up to me and reminded me
of that last evening in fact, as she was in the orchestra but could not go on
the trip and was really disappointed! But she got to come to my Boston camp
this weekend! So many things are moving quite fast I would say. Students and
teachers are leading the way it looks like and taking initiative. That is a
good sign.
As far as your other questions about franchising. Suzuki is not technically
franchised. Any teacher can advertise the fact that they teach the O'Connor
Method in the studios and at community schools. That is completely appropriate
and if it brings in students for them, by all means they should advertise that
they teach a Method that is attractive to potential customers of course.
In the short term I would like to see choices and options for parents, students
and schools. Instead of the cookie cutter, one size fits all Suzuki. I think
the 21st century should be a restart and hit a refresh button. The strings need
it - more than any other instrument group out there.
Well thanks for taking the time
for a thorough response. It'll be interesting to see how your vision unfolds in
the coming years. I know as a perfomer/educator myself that I'd like to see
strings become a vibrant force in education. String teachers today have to
compete with other programs vying for attention like modern dance, art etc. and
that can only by done with a fresh perspective in methods. It seems like you're
well on your way. I'll take a look at the orchestra materials and order them
for my groups in the coming year. Best of luck! I have a few students currently
using your method with their private teachers and they really enjoy it.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Mark, I adore your passion. Music
Education in general, not just string education, is in desperate need of new
leadership. Your musicianship and your willingness to speak truth to power (and
staggering ignorance) is exciting.
So, whilst Eric is being oddly coy, I'll not: Read the following book: Learning
Sequences in Music: Skill, Content & Pattern by Edwin E. Gordon. If you'd
like, I'll pay for the book to be sent to you.
Gordon is the researcher Erik has twice referred to without naming. Gordon's
work, among other things:
*Clarifies Dalcroze & Laban rhythmically (Gordon was Krupa's bassist for a
time and learned a great deal about rhythm that way) and creates a meaningful
structure for teaching real rhythm; not counting,
*Expands and refines Kodaly tonally (all the modes from birth, harmonic
functions in specific orders related to how the mind works, not how any
particular musical form works)
*Explains hierarchical skill sequences which enable (or will inhibit)
higher-order skills like improv & composition (for example, the reason
those Suzuki folks never seem to produce interpreters and improvisers is
because they never cross a bridging skill Gordon refers to as Partial Synthesis--basically
aural mode & meter identification
*Dooms to virtual irrelevancy via mountains of early childhood research the
procedures of Suzuki & Orff.
Or call Dr. Gordon himself, he's in his late 80's but is still ever the ignored
iconoclast. Contact me privately for his number on my blog
mindmusclemusicmyth.blogspot.com
Lastly, you may also wish to make contact with a jazzer at Eastman; Professor
Chris Azzara and/or check out his series 'Developing Musicianship through
Improvisation.' He created this excellent resource on the firm foundation
Gordon elucidated and I believe you'll find kindred ideas.
Best wishes for a fruitful overturning of the apple carts!
Song Travels with Michael
Feinstein presents Mark O’Connor!
Grammy-winning violinist Mark O'Connor is one of the most widely-heard fiddlers
on the scene today, equally at home playing bluegrass, country, jazz and
classical. A serious educator, his approach to teaching strings is considered a
rival to the Suzuki method. Feinstein and O'Connor get together for Fats
Waller's “Ain't Misbehavin’” and George Gershwin's “Summertime” on this week's
Song Travels.
Piano
teacher (art/ classical music) (art/ethnic -world music) at Music Teachers
Association of California
---------
'*Dooms to virtual irrelevancy via mountains of early childhood research the
procedures of Suzuki & Orff. ' (from Ron Malanga's post)
Can someone explain to me what this statement means? In reference to Orff
especially which is most effective in Elementary music ed. , especially
addressing children challenged with eye-hand coordination ...
Ron Malanga, very nice to meet you
here and your letter is amazing and important. Thank you.
When I set out to author a string method and establish "A New American
School of String Playing" that includes my Method but also the work and
contributions of many ultimately, I had a sense that alliances could take place
against Suzuki and its non-creative training - the only hope for 99% of
their students is an orchestra section job. And probably close to 99% won't get
that either. I knew that I would have many American music lovers on my side,
but I also knew there there was every reason to believe that while music
conservatories and academia left out American string playing, they would not be
able to forever. Why? because I have introduced American string playing to the
classical music environment through my concertos, chamber music, work with
Yo-Yo Ma etc..., bringing new interests in a myriad of American string styles
thorough my knowledge of American string playing at the top performance and
educational levels (being the student and protege of Benny Thomasson and
Stephane Grappelli does not hurt!), authoring the O'Connor Method that already
tens of thousands of students are learning violin out of just in 4 years of
being released, but also because the conservatories finally embraced Jazz. That
was the sure sign at least to me, that an American String School was possible
after being ignored for hundreds of years.
Your note means a lot. Please write me at mark@markoconnor.com so I can get you
my address for the books. I just heard from one of my colleagues Steve Zdzinski
at Univ of Miami who has worked with students of Gordon. One of his students
did a dissertation with him on Gordon MLT teaching techniques with strings. Dr.
Charles Ciorba was worked on Gordon stuff with him too. Steve was also a TA to
Dr. Stan Schleuter, a Gordon student and and author of the text, "A sound
approach to teaching instrumentalists." Some retired faculty there at UofM
Nick and Joyce DeCarbo are also Schleuter students. So all of this has great
relevance to what we are doing. Let me hear from you and keep in touch here. I
think we are making great progress!
Onkgit, Ron can answer you
directly of course if he wishes. But from my standpoint, music should be both a
creative and a technical learning process. Some of these 20th century violin
manuals doubled down on technical aspects of violin, tossing the creative part
of the violin out the window (composing, arranging, improvisation, stylistic
diversity, theory). The question here is not if they did this or not - that has
to be obvious to everyone. The question is why they did it?
My two cents. The violin world perceived Heifetz and others of his era to be
technical monsters of incomparable facility. Violin manuals began to reflect
the technical skill of violin playing even more so than before, perhaps because
of these violinist's substantial careers in classical music and the amounts of
money to be made as soloists in the modern era. It also helped to feed the
string enrollment of the burgeoning conservatories. But it was a misreading of
these great violin players and their culture - emphatically. They were also
very creative musicians, and it is very plausible that their own creativity
facilitated their technical growth and abilities. Anyone could argue and
correctly so, that Paganini's own creativity facilitated more technical
development in his playing. Same with with Heifetz. In other words, the
classical violin world got it backwards unfortunately. For an environment that
prides itself over longevity, they doubled down on the short fix and quick
money. Rather than the 300-year plan, it became the 25-year plan. "How
much money can we make now" became the motto of the classical music
environment post Heifetz, from conservatories, professors, students, violin
manuals, scale books, instrument dealers, classical empresarios, managers and
concert promoters.
If you take every 50 year chunk of the classical violin's history dating back
to Bach and Vivaldi, there are striking violin players, striking violin careers
and striking violin music to come out of those 50 year chunks of time. The era
of Itzhak Perlman and Yo-Yo Ma being ushered in the 1960s and 70s represents
the 50-year period just before ours. Those players while maybe not the
player-composers that others were before them, still had highly personalized
sound, interpretation, huge careers and influence. This last 50-year period -
the period of the Suzuki era has produced far less for classical violin on all
possible fronts. Less great careers, less player-composers, less individuality,
less top players, less creativity and ideas... and a symphony orchestra scene
in universities and in the profession that is beginning to hang in the
balance...etc etc. If you arguably place my friends Josh Bell and Hilary Hahn
at the top of the classical violin world in the U.S., by most any measurement,
their careers are less than half of what Perlman and Ma's were the previous 50
year chunk. Perlman and Ma being equal to the previous 50-year period of Stern,
Menuhin, Rabin, Heifetz. And likewise, those being the equal to the previous 50
year chunk of Kreisler, Sibelius, Sarasate and the list goes on,back to Bach.
So to sum. The all-technical manuals not only didn't help classical violin and
the violin scene in classical music, it is likely killing it off right before
our eyes. That is why I am coming forward the "A New American School of
String Playing." I think it will happen, and it could in turn help to save
arts music for strings. The current track and trajectory is not sustainable.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Onkit,
Music skills are learned systematically. Tonal skill development has
hierarchical processes which all musicians must go through. Rhythm development
has it's own sequences, too. Orff has no systematic procedures to be followed.
Also, early childhood skills are utterly crucial to get right if further
musicianship is to be developed and Orff's early childhood ideas were
beautiful, but wrong. I will give two examples for tone and two for rhythm.
Pentatonic is the wrong place to start tonally. Kids need to hear harmonically
active tones to begin to develop a sense of tonal center/keynote/resting tone
(call it what you will).
Non-functional harmony is the wrong place to move to next. Functional harmony
assists in expanding a sense of tonal center into a sense of tonality; i.e. how
each mode behaves--how each uses it's particular scale.
Angular small muscle movements such as clapping and playing xylophones inhibit
rhythmic skill development. Rhythm development initially demands curvi-linear
large-muscle, even full-body movements to gain a sense of how time flows
through space.
Finally, ostinato's whilst effective for making music quickly are, by their very
nature, dulling to learning as it is difference, not sameness that sparks
learning.
Lastly, and to your point about children challenged with coordination issues,
28% of the intake at Horizon School, where I teach, have such issues. The best
thing for these students is to develop their musical conception BEFORE adding
the 'target-practice' of skinny xylo bars such that their muscles have as clear
and compelling musical instructions as possible.
Please understand, I do not criticize ANY methodology lightly. I've taught them
all in my 22 years as a teacher; Gordon's MLT provides the most efficacious
results because his work is based on the richest understanding of learning we
currently have.
I sincerely welcome the opportunity for further dialogue.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
I couldn't agree more with Mark
when he reminds us that the doubling down on technical issues to the exclusion
of the truly creative is the most likely culprit of the dearth of truly great,
musically compelling violinists coming out of Suzuki.
Also, more optimistically, the artist jazz musicians taking their rightful
place in our great music schools & conservatories is a wonderful, hopeful
occurrence.
While a simplification, I tell my youngest students to think of instruments as
tone texting.
Nobody gave you technique lessons--hour after hour of alphabetic work--in
texting. You taught yourself to text and continue to get better & better at
it independently.
Here's how. Your mind demands a message: "Honey, I'll be home later."
Your fingers do a little dance; your muscles diligently attempting to obey the
thought. You look at the screen and it says, "Honey, I'll be gome
jater." The momentary confusion you experience upon seeing the outer
product not match the inner thought quickly gives way to simply teaching your
muscles a more accurate dance to get the result you intended. You're making muscles
mirror thought.
Now, instead of words, call up a musical thought. Muscles can & will
diligently obey these as well. Think the opening 9 tones of Beethoven's
"Fur Elise." Go to a piano and play it, but start on a C instead of
the original E. If the musical thought is clear, momentary confusion (as you
might play a wrong note here or there) will give way to you teaching your
muscles a more accurate dance until once again you find yourself making
movement mirror thought (playing 'Fur Elise,' but in F Minor as opposed to the
original A minor.)
A mind that calls out clearly for a particular message will beget muscles that
find a way to deliver that message, be it musical or linguistic. This is why we
should emphasize tone & rhythm development. Heard tone & rhythm
patterns riding on our inner sense of tonality and meter is the stuff of
musical thought. They comprise the musical messages we intend our muscles to
execute.
And once the proper readiness exists, there is no better way to develop these
than harmonic improvisation.
Piano
teacher (art/ classical music) (art/ethnic -world music) at Music Teachers
Association of California
Ron,
I am strongly opposed towards your statement : "Pentatonic is the wrong
place to start tonally. Kids need to hear harmonically active tones to begin to
develop a sense of tonal center/keynote/resting tone (call it what you
will)."
This is a very culture-particular orientation in music pedagogy. In our present
21st c. classrooms where students are multicultural, have different music
backgrounds, who is to say that we cannot start with pentatonic or start with
western tonality ...? To very young children needing to explore for example
simple rhythmic patterns using quarter and 2 eights notes ... 'jamming' on the
xylophones using only 'black keys' can be very exciting ... etc. etc.
I can go on and on and on and would like to read further your comments ... but
i stopped at your quip on 'pentatonic scale' ... just had to address that ...
in my 7th grade world music class we use the gamelan as well as other world
music tuning system with all other rhythm instruments african drums (tuned NOT
in tonic dominant) etc etc,) each child dress according to their particular
cultural roots or whatever culture they feel they like to belong to in their
end of the year performances .... again , i can go on and on and on but need to
get back to teaching soon ...
Piano
teacher (art/ classical music) (art/ethnic -world music) at Music Teachers
Association of California
----
oh and one more thing Ron , may I quote youo again : "Orff's early
childhood ideas were beautiful, but wrong. I will give two examples for tone
and two for rhythm. "
-- There is no standardized Orff curriculum. Orff never intended a strict
pedagogical method. Orff teachers design their own lesson plans and adapt it to
suit the size of the class,the age of the students, the needs of every student
, the diversity in the classroom...
Ongkit, you said "There is no
standardized Orff curriculum. Orff never intended a strict pedagogical
method." Then there is no method. If there is no method nor materials, we
should remove his name from any of that teaching simply put. Call it the Ongkit
Method.
A method has to be tied to its materials. I don't believe that you can play
great Rock 'n' Roll just because you studied Mozart. A matter of fact, I know
you can't. That is why there is "methodology" - a procedure to
accomplish a set of skills. My O'Connor Method is perhaps one of the most broad
methods ever presented in strings. Because the skills in American music lead to
so many areas of the music world. It is an extraordinary journey, and I easily
found that American music was the route to achieve the greatest set of skills
needed for the 21st century music. In other words, someone accomplished in
American strings styles can both be in a Western Classical orchestra and jam
with that world music gamelan player you spoke of. The series of books elevates
the string player to access much more information and experience through my
analyses of music education.
Piano
teacher (art/ classical music) (art/ethnic -world music) at Music Teachers
Association of California
Precisely Ron! that is what makes the Orff method unique because it can be
"Ron Method' 'Ongkit Method' 'Teacher -in-loco method' ... Orff's vision
was for this generation , (re your statement: 'A method has to be tied to its
materials') strict and tied methods are meant to change and be obsolete at one
point ... Orff's approach evolves with the educator's sociological and
hisotrical milieu as well as this method encompass all areas of music
competency including that of 'moving' to music ... http://musiced.about.com/od/lessonplans/tp/orffmethod.htm (I
just found this site on google - just thought some may want to re-acquaint
themselves with the Orfff -Schulwerk Method.'
...
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Ongkit,
Respectfully, there needn't be a standardized curriculum, but there must
be---lest curricula be the limiting factor in our children's learning--an
understanding of how the musical mind works in the design of long term and
short term planning.
It matters not whether Orff, or Kodaly, or Suzuki, or Dalcroze, or Laban, or
Gordon, or O'Connor INTEND a strict pedagogical sequence; it only matters that
the sequence take into account an understanding of HOW music learning actually
occurs. The minds processes are not immutable.
They key questions are about when you teach what you wish children to learn.
What skills provide the readiness for what other skills. What tonal content
provides the readiness for other tonal content. What rhythm content follows
those quarter-eighth patterns? When is the right time for Dorian? Triple?
Asymmetric meters? Phrygian?
Absent an understanding of answers to questions like the above, you'll still be
able to generate intriguing, fun, musical lessons, but you will not be able to
create a truly progressive curriculum wherein learned skills, contents, and
contexts provide direct readiness for upcoming skills, contents and contexts.
The truth is, our understanding of how the musical mind works is fairly recent
science; Orff couldn't have known it, and, the fact that Orff himself was a
monster musician makes it even less likely that he would have intuited it. He
personally would have made giant musical leaps in his own development. That's
why what is commonly known as 'Orff' really ought be called 'Geetman,' she
developed it chiefly, not Orff.
And, being in Dubai, even though my school is small, we have over 40
nationalities represented, I do understand and utilize multicultural materials.
Piano
teacher (art/ classical music) (art/ethnic -world music) at Music Teachers
Association of California
----------
Understanding how the musical mind works dates back to Boethius' time , neither
has it been lost along the years and I strongly believe Orff understood it
clearly.
This will be my last exchange of thought re- Music Education methodologies...
just want to remind all classroom music educators that much as we try to design
a progressive curriculum that builds on music competencies and skills securely
... we often have to deall with changing students year after year ... you do
not get the same chilldren the next school year all the time ... you are lucky
to get half of them re-enroll for the next public or private school year ...
individual piano students who you can have for 14 years or more is a different
story ... but I am talking here of the regular music educator in the classroom.
Ongkit, I was really trying to
narrow my comments to string instruction. Obviously a year of strings and
quitting is what we see in Suzuki all over the place. It is not a great thing.
You are doing an introduction to music and musical instruments. I would hardly
confuse that with pedagogy, although your work is educational and hugely
important. But this thread was clearly about pedagogy which is the
"practice" of an instrument, not merely exposure to the instruments
in the classroom. I hope that is clear. And by the way, I love your spirit. We
need you out here. If you ever decide to teach strings, I want you!
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Mark,
Most instrument study has a drop-off after the first year. Retail music print
dealers and publishers keep track of these numbers. I have also read research
on this but did not keep a copy of the article. Where do you get your Suzuki
drop-off numbers? And, have you compared those numbers to other methods and
other instruments?
PLEASE do not respond to me in a vitriolic way! Do not "assume"
anything about me. There is nothing evil in my questions. I am interested in
numbers and would like to know where we can find reliable ones.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Onkit, forgive me once again, but
compassionate thinkers don't necessarily get things right just because they're
delightful beneficent humans. And, my students come and go as well; Dubai is
very transient. That issue argues even more for an understanding of skill and
content sequencing.
The truth is, understanding how the musical mind works is new and still
somewhat incomplete.
Boethius did not know that absent the ability to aurally identify the
prevailing mode, true harmonic improvisation is impossible; only
exploration/scale wanderings.
Suzuki did not know that 8 major songs in a row is less effective at teaching
major tonality than is learning one song in each mode.
Orff did not know that curvilinear movements are the foundation of tempo
development, not clapping or tapping.
Dalcroze didn't know that what he called energy & plasticity was actually
four separate effort elements (flow, weight, space, time) combined.
Bernstein, in his famous Unanswered Questions lectures at Harvard didn't know
that the universal grammar of Noam Chomsky couldn't square with music
because--whilst largely mirroring the linguistic sequence--tonal learning
requires an extra associative step which language does not.
Kodaly didn't know that--for the mind--arpeggios related to keynotes are more
valuable than stepwise movements.
None of the above knew that context (an inner held sense of the prevailing mode
and/or meter) precedes the comprehension of content (specific rhythm or tone
patterns).
Forgive me, but I could go on and on.
There is so very much that is new and needs to be integrated into curricula,
lest we keep on suggesting this is an art form only for the talented and the
rest can explore a bit in school, play an instrument for a while, quit, then go
back to listening to whatever they preferred when they were 13 years old.
We can do better. As Dr. Richard Grunow, head of Music Education at Eastman
likes to say, "The foundation for teaching should be an understanding of
learning.' Onkit, our understanding of learning has changed in the last couple
of decades. Boethius would be amazed.
Janet, you don't have a profile
picture attached to your post. You are using caps within your message to me,
you are saying your question is not "evil," and you are accusing me
of "vitriol? Can you quote a single place in this thread where I was
vitriolic? Please don't accuse people of being something they are not! It is
unbecoming as an educator.
To your question, I never met an ex-fiddler. Does that make me a statistician?
Well it makes me about as qualified as when I was working towards Yo-Yo Ma
performing my Appalachia Waltz composition all over the world! ;#]
Ron, your writing and knowledge is
so impressive. I would love for you to take a look at something that I
discovered (I believe). It would absolutely be wonderful to me if you could
assess this diagram of this universal/natural occurrence, describing what it
means in your own words. I want to use it for my own educational materials. If
you wish. It appears at the conclusion of my books I and II. Most people
(teachers) don't get it, but I have not gone into detail what it means to them.
I will print here what I discovered and if you could just take it and run with
it. I think it is gloriously beautiful!
O'Connor Method: Scales and Intervals-Books I & II. Intervals of the scale
correspond with colors of the rainbow.
I had studied the Bernstein Unanswered Questions lectures at Harvard a long
time ago, my son went to Harvard and graduated Summa Cum Laude. I was moved
mostly by how Bernstein was tapping into the universal inevitability of music.
I wanted to further discover how music was one with humanity therefore one with
nature. So I was looking for universal truths of music and why the Western
scale evolved to be the thing that brought the music world together.
Several years before I released the Method in 2009, I was on the road, one of
my many tours criss-crossing this great country of people and music making. I
was in a random car as a passenger, staring out the window wanting to find
something about nature that I could define and select as one of my many
"signatures" of my methodology. It happened so fast, that it kind of
made my head spin. I looked out the passenger window and there was a rainbow. I
was impressed right away because I noticed how wide it was. I muttered under my
breath asking how many colors do these things have anyway? And I thought I had
counted seven. I hit the internet on my phone and looked up rainbow and sure
enough - seven colors. There are seven notes to the Western scale. I read
further because now I knew what I was looking for. Associations.
Rainbows in their full capacity, always begin with red on the left side. If the
rainbow is revealed to the extent of its color spectrum, they reach the color
violet. Right away I thought about the musical scale and how it always begins
at home (red) and you end the scale at violet.
I realized that the color violet was an interesting color to ascend to, the 2nd
to the final outer band of color was indigo. Also an unusual color. I thought
to myself, complex color. Not primary like red. Then I realized that red was on
band #1, yellow band #3 and blue on band #5. Are you kidding me I told myself!
The position of the primary colors in the bands of the rainbow are the primary
notes of a chord! 1-3-5. Then I quickly looked at 2 and 4. They are colors that
are only achieved by uniting #1 and #3. Mix red and yellow to get orange.
Orange the 2nd note of the scale is a passing tone! Same with uniting #3 and #5
to make green. The 4th interval of the scale can be considered a passing
tone...they are secondary colors, and secondary of importance in the intervals.
I start shaking my head at this point. Then I look at the 6th and the 7th
bands. They are not primary colors nor secondary colors. They are complex
colors. In the way that the interval between the 1st and the 6th or the 1st and
the 7th are the most complex intervals in music.
When musicians are creative and can improvise, we think in terms of the first
note of the chord, the 2nd note of the chord and so forth. We also think in
terms of intervals with in chords and harmony. No matter what key we are in,
the home key is the #1. The rainbow is the organic natural manifestation of
musical creativity in western music in how it assigned its color scheme. And
western music is the music style that got the whole world singing and playing
the same music.
I hope that it can be one of my philosophical concepts that I could offer the
music scene.http://twitpic.com/d0nx2f MOC
Dear Mark O,
I would love to talk to you more about Gordon's Learning Sequence. I have been
expanding what children can do using his method as a skeleton to the body I
have bulit around it—all based on how children best learn. I start as young as
I can (at birth in some cases) and go through to 10 year olds developing a very
comprehensive curriculum based in audiation I can. Harmonically, I have
children understand many functions in major—at least 8. 5 in minor. And at
least 3 in mixolydian, dorian, and aeolian. Tonally, I have children audit
every tonality except locrian. They sing the harmonic patterns to the essential
functions in each after they've learned to sing and more to the repertoire. In
terms of meter, my students by 4 or 5 years old move fluidly in all meters,
moving between 7/8, 3/4 and back to 7/8 in some repertoire. They do this
independently! I feel as though I'm breaking new ground in "the ear"
probably much the same way you are breaking new ground with violin
methodology—mind you, not that the two are in the least mutually exclusive. In
fact, I'm willing to bet there is considerable overlap.
I invite you to chat with me if you're so inclined. Gordon's books are fairly
dense and in some parts unreadable (per my advisor who wrote a book about how
to write clearly and concisely.) Still, that said, the content is based on the
best thinking and research in music education. It burns me up at times to see
him so thoroughly ignored by music education. He's to music education what
Einstein is to physics, but mostly everyone turned their back on the truth
instead of engaging with it. Even the best music education universities in the
country have little time to properly educate music teachers in how children
best learn music.
Again, I'd love to speak with you. I'm passionate about what I do and I think I
have a lot to offer in a way that Gordon and his Institute hasn't been able to
break through. His work is basically shunned. I don't know if I can alter this
much, but I'm well-versed in distilling his major contributions to parents, as
well as those of us who suspicious music educators.
People are strongly entrenched in
their own "methods." People will say the same of me and Gordon. I say
to them, show me your children's results from across the board musical achievement.
I'll show you mine. Let's see whose children are musically creative, can
improvise, compose, and how good they are. How free they are from the damned
music theory most teach them far too early.
Rainbows and music: very good
Mark. The correlation is nothing new though. Isaac Newton was puzzling over the
same thing in the 1500's! Another cool fun fact about the relationship is that
orange and blue are both about HALF of the width of the other colors! ... just
like the natural half steps between B-C & E-F! Pretty magical stuff I
think. I myself did some research into trying to figure out if the visual
spectrum, made of basically the same stuff as sound (waves), and a known
constant, is completely in line with today's standard pitch... my conclusion:
close but more in tune with today's Ab. Standard pitch was about that low back
when Stadavari was designing our instruments. I know that tuning my Stad copy
down a 1/2 step opens the sound up considerably... just as it was designed for.
I have to wonder if tuning and thinking down that half step might align us with
other spectrums in between sound and light (or beyond)? Who are we to say not?
Maybe Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan (both who tuned down a 1/2 step), and
critics/fans say "channelled god through their fingertips" were onto
something?? I know that I like it. Hard to get the rest of the world to come
with me though. In another experiment, while a string director at a Waldorf
school, I for a period of time tuned down every instrument in the
elementary/middle school orchestra that 1/2 step. The kids interestingly did
not say that it sounded better... but that it FELT better. Interesting.
Geoffrey, I don't know about the
"nothing new" thing. I don't remember their research talking about
the major triad, the more complex intervals, as well as passing tones with the
blurred colors and how it relates to musical creativity? They were just identifying
the seven colors to the seven note scale. I was breaking it down into a
creative process. Let me know if there is anything written on that. If there
is, I will chalk it up as great minds think alike because I had never heard it.
In your text, I assume you meant "green" instead of "blue"
in your descriptions to the half steps. Obviously in the a major scale, the 2nd
interval is a whole step going both ways, so I doubt that the
"orange" color being thinner is anything but arbitrary. I was really
speaking of more universal absolutes that I found in the connection of nature
and in musical creativity that I wanted to prove. Let me know... Thx.
Eric, you are clearly an
exceptional individual. I am excited to know that you are within a train ride
from me here in NYC. I have a very strong affinity for Baltimore. The Baltimore
Symphony and Marin Alsop recorded my symphony "The Americana
Symphony."
Yes of course there are all kinds of overlap with what you are doing from
Gordon's perspective and what I am doing. For one thing I am a bass player too,
and I know how "musical" good bass players are. I have worked with
some of the greatest bass players on earth as well - Victor Wooten, Edgar
Meyer, John Patitucci, Michael Rhodes, Lee Sklar, the list is long. Gordon
being jazz - of course - rhythm, creativity, improvisation, theory, tonality,
patterns and phrases...My final teacher was Stephane Grappelli. I don't think I
need to say more on that! Then there is American music and the styles that this
kind of study makes a lot of sense in. I know how to play most American styles
enough to sit in and pass the bar with most anyone. My musical training allows
me to do that, and I want that for students. The American School of String
Playing student will be able to play in most every American style, but also
participate in the orchestra section at school, and to be able to write a portion
of their music as well. This combination blows Suzuki out of the water for the
21st century. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about it. For those who
want to hang on to Suzuki, are hanging on to a relic. If they are adults that
are insisting to hang on, they can do what they want to. But we are talking
about children, and children everywhere deserve our best. Not the worst that we
have.
I agree with you. I think what you are doing, is basically what I embrace. I
have a few different approaches because I wish to accomplish some violin
aesthetics; tone intonation, coordinating bowing and fingering, vibrato,
posture, dynamics, string cross, portamento, shifting - are all tricky with the
violin - but I have combined those large technical issues alongside of the work
in creativity, stylistic diversity, improvisation, various grooves and feels,
music of different eras etc in a holistic and organic way.
I think that you should host an O'Connor Teacher Training Seminar at Peabody
that we can do for three days - and turn your local string teachers lose on
this. It sounds like a perfect fit! Marin Alsop would endorse it. Here is a
quote she just gave us for my new "The Improvised Violin Concerto"
Thanks and look forward to getting together. MOC
“For audiences and aspiring young musicians, hearing a completely improvised
concerto is a unique and inspiring opportunity. It is a wonderful concept
brilliantly executed by the gifted Mark O'Connor.”
– Marin Alsop (Conductor, Music Director of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra,
Principal Conductor of the São Paulo State Symphony Orchestra)
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Mark,
Everything Eric says I agree with, save one: certainly sometimes Gordon can
wait a long while before offering a verb, and he writes with the specificity of
a scientist, but he's never unreadable. It takes a new vocabulary sometimes to
elucidate new ideas.
But boy-oh-boy do I concur fully with the results Eric outlines; all the modes,
meters, tonal functions, rhythm functions, and skills, etc.
The sense that Gordon's work allows us to break ground in ear training feels so
true,
Eric, come back to GIML!! This summer in Chicago I'm delivering a session and
it would be so wonderful to meet you. You and I are peas in a pod, I suspect.
Lastly Mark, I'm going to give myself a day to think more deeply into your
rainbow analogy. But what came to mind when I woke up this morning was how---as
it relates to how the musical mind works--visible light and it's constituent
spectrum is a kind of inverse of a sense of tonality and it's constituent
tones.
Here's, vaguely at this point, what I'm thinking:
The whole (visible light) is made up--invisibly--of this 7-part spectrum, and
we require a tool (a prism or light refraction through water droplets) for it's
constituent elements to be revealed to us.
Musically, the whole (a sense of tonality), is the unheard/invisible element,
made up of the visible/audible 7-part tonal elements, and we need a tool
(Gordon's stages of Audiation) for it's totality to be revealed to us.
There's more there, too. I sense what you're on to with the blurred colors, the
arpeggio and passing tone comparisons as they relate to creativity. My thoughts
are still swirling on this.
In the meantime, I'd be honored if you would read the most controversial post
on my blog, including the first set of comments. The post is called, 'Do NOT
read this post.'
Some of what is percolating in my mind regarding your rainbows is alluded to in
it.
Ron, what can I say about your
blog except that it is spot on. It is exactly what my Method is on the creative
aspects. It is also who I am as an artist. Identifying the more important notes
in a melodic shape as opposed to the incidental notes etc.. all the same as how
I approach. I love the arpeggios in disguise - basically chord shapes... all
much more musically holistic than any regimen of thinking, or practicing
scales.
I have a couple of things that you should know. I achieved one of the greatest
technical standards on violin in our era, confirmed by many violinists and
critics, and I never practiced scales on the violin. Never! I know the scales
but I never practiced them. I am going to link a video for you so you can
really see my ability at violin technique (and creativity because I wrote the
caprices), But it is obvious that scales are not the answer to creativity, to
composition to improvisation... But here is the "dirty" (swords
drawn) info.... they are not necessary to violin pedagogy. They are not
necessary for intonation - actually I make cases that intonation suffers
because of practicing scales. I think one of my secrets to phrasing and rhythm
is my ability to "pop" out notes that are the most important ones in
every phrase I play. The very best Bach players can do this - but after years
of contextually study of that music. I can do it on the fly. Give me any melody
and phrase and I can articulate it in a way that makes musical sense - quickly.
It was one of the reasons why I was the top session musician in the country for
a while in the 1980s... I simply could take any simple strand of notes, and
make it into something memorable. Other fiddlers or strings players might play
the same notes, but not as memorable and far more academic.
Your blog, much of it corresponds to my "Rainbow Chart" That is the
secret of the rainbow that I discovered - about the musical creativity within
the notes of a scale, something. I discovered these relationships to intervals
in the rainbow.
What this all means to me, and probably to you.. is that what we are talking
about is innate. It is universal. People may not know how to teach it out
there, they might no know how to learn it... but every single person responds
to it... even if they don't know what they are responding to.
I think it is the same impulse that makes accomplished musicians respond to
other accomplished musicians in another style. We can hear on new levels. That
is if they were not trained out of hearing on new levels by constantly
practicing scales, and "scaling" their way out of being an intuitive
creative artist.
Here is another interesting fact. I am a multi instrumentalist. I began on
guitar, and I was very good. Considered in some circles as a top guitarist. I
played guitar in Stephane Grappelli's band if that gives you an idea! I also
studied some piano. I intuitively created my own test lab, even as a 12
year-old kid. I had a sense about the mystique of music.. and would tell my
mother of my musical vision as a child prodigy that I was. She knew what I was
up to. I told my mom when I was 12 that I was going to make the violin 100%
creative for me. Not practice technique. For guitar I was going to practice
technique and scales 50% of the time - so half technique and half creative on
guitar. And on piano it was going to be 100% technique and scales. On the piano
I practiced all scales, all modes in octaves with both hands up and down the
keyboard constantly.
Result of my teenage experiment: I cannot play piano at all. I can compose for
it because of my creative musical mind, but can't play anything. Guitar, I was
good and I achieved my peak from ages 16 to 24 I would say, then I started
slipping. Today, I don't play guitar at all, mainly from an old injury, but
never cared to keep it up in the end even though was very good. The violin - is
the center of my life, It opened up the secrets to life and to love for me.
Mark O'Connor Caprices #4 and #5
at Cleveland Institute of Music a couple of years ago. Joel Smirnoff the
president and the dean of CIM were both in the audience.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Mark,
You didn't need to send the link, I'd already found it and marveled at your
staggering musicianship.
I also love that you're a bit of a scientist too; guinea-pigging yourself
through three curricular strands!! Too cool. And out of the wholly musical
stream on violin comes your divine gifts to the rest of us; your artistry.
I selfishly cringe to think of the loss had you followed the more traditional
route. I'd never have had my heart cracked open by your Appalachian Waltz or
delighted in the sheer dazzle of your Caprices.
And, yes; it is innate, as in were all born with the potential to do it.
(Precious few are born with YOUR degree of potential, but all have some.)
Thankfully, how to truly utilize the mostly untapped potential the rest of us
have is also teachable/learn-able.
You, good sir, are practically the walking definition of INTUITION. What Gordon
and others have done is to define the TUITION needed for the rest of us. No
surprise, it looks a lot like your intuitions! I.E. Sing, improvise, teach
yourself to play by ear, learn notation as 'icons that sing' not finger
positioning instructions, hear through textures to discover harmonic functions,
delineate them by popping those important tones, feel rhythm as internalized
movement and flow (NOT COUNTING!), etc., etc!!
It all just demands a patient understanding of the complex workings of the
musical mind and then it is truly teachable.
To be truly useful, teachers must first guide kids through the early childhood
stages of "Preparatory Audiation" (Gordon's term for
pre-contexualized musical thoughts).
Then next they must be able to manage to keep 3 initially independent, but
later interdependent musical plates spinning within each child: what Gordon
calls Tonal Learning Sequence, Rhythm Learning Sequence, and Skill Learning
Sequence.
Later, add instruments and a taxonomy of harmonic patterns and improvisation
begins to do the rest. It's complex, but doable.
Teachers like Eric Rasmussen, Beth Bolton at Temple, Azzara & Grunow at
Eastman, Cynthia Taggart at Michigan State, Jennifer Bailey in Farmington, Tom
Spackman in Amsterdam, and many others do it every day.
I'm so very pleased your method is going to help this literal renaissance that
folks like those mentioned above are also part of.
I can hear the apples tumbling off the carts already!! it's music to my ears.
Instrumental
Music Teacher at School District of Philadelphia
It is important to know that the
Suzuki philosophy of teaching is not a method. The Suzuki philosophy is to
teach children in the same way they learn their native language through
listening, repetition, aural association, and symbolic association. This is the
same process a child learns how to read language. This approach is utilized
with very young children, who do not read yet; preschool age. For traditional
Suzuki teachers, note reading is introduced at the end of the first year. As a
string teacher in the public schools, I have had much success with this
approach with my young students. String concepts and techniques are the same
whatever method book you use. Since children learn in many different ways,
there is no one method book to achieve this. An excellent string teacher
employs an eclectic stradegy to teaching; using many different approaches to
achieve.
Maureen, we definitely don't need
Suzuki's philosophy designed in Imperial Japan - in the 1930s. It is much
better to update the philosophy for learning. It is brutal enough for Baroque
music...we don't need it to ruin American music and everything else. It is a
method with a philosophy. The method is not good and the philosophy is not
good. The method and philosophy of learning that includes
mimic-repeat-memorization-rote-non individuality-non-creative ear training is
what we have had in violin for the last 50 years. In that time, the Suzuki
philosophy has yielded less quality across the board. Nearly no top soloists,
player-composers, improvisers, ensemble leaders, arrangers and nearly no new
violin literature. In short, that "philosophy" is sucking the life
out of the violin in classical music. It is time to move on from Suzuki's
method and his philosophy and do something that will be better for the kids and
better for the violin and string world. The violin over the last 50 years has
struggled to maintain relevance in our life and culture. Suzuki's philosophy of
learning has overseen this downfall. It will only get worse, the more we tie
his philosophy to other music. It was flawed from the beginning because Suzuki
himself was not an expert at music...He created what he thought was good for
himself to learn as an 18 year-old beginner, and applied it to 3 year-olds.
This was bad. he called it Talent Education, teaching himself to be
"talented" at 18! It didn't work for himself as a player and it has
had sobering results on the majority of 3 year-olds - most of them quitting at
some point in their childhood. He in so many words, didn't know what he was
doing. He was a product of marketing in America. There is no great music or
musical movement than can be tied to his teaching. He proved that hundreds of
thousands of 3 and 4 year-olds can learn to play the violin, and hundreds of
thousands of 8,10 and 12 year-olds can quit the violin. It is not the right fit
for America, for music, and certainly for the health and future of the
classical violin.
This weekend on NPR across the
country - Mark O'Connor for an hour!
"Violinist is one of the most versatile fiddlers in music today: He seems
equally at home playing bluegrass, country, jazz and classical. With its roots
in Texas fiddling, O'Connor's music has shaped an entirely American school of
string playing. His approach to teaching violin is considered a rival to the
Suzuki method.
In this episode of Song Travels, O'Connor and host get together to explore
American music — a journey which includes a performance of Fats Waller's
"Ain't Misbehavin'" and O'Connor's elegant arrangements of
traditional American pieces." -National Public Radio
Adam, you posted this letter
before! Your premise is off though my friend. You say that some prefer Coke or
Pepsi etc... A 3 year-old or 5 year-old is not going to prefer one method over
another necessarily, because they won't be in a position to choose. They will
just quit all together perhaps or give in to doing it because their parents
wants them to! A method has to be introduced to them by their teacher or
parent. It is up to us, the leaders in the field to make sure that introduction
of a methodology is sound. So by the time they get to age 10 or 12, they can
begin choosing musical directions on their own. And that is a good thing.
As far as the inquiry into my Method, I am used to filling people in on it. I
look at it as my job - to explain violin training and the American School that
includes creativity as well as orchestra and how it is better than the current
models out there. I supposed I would not have taken 10 years to author the
method, taking time away from my work as a musical artist and often
commissioned composers, just to produce a method that I didn't think was great.
I don't why anyone would expect that I would do that....
Adam, I don't know what your issue
is, but I have had good exchanges here on this very thread! A matter of fact I
was so inspired by some our fellow colleagues that I may write a blog on what
good exchanges we have had on this thread. I hope the critiques have been
helpful and I hope the good information has been helpful. I have also
substantiated things in the exchanges, especially in how there is a lot of
overlap with the America School of String Playing and the most recent academic
research on how children learn music... unfortunately for Suzuki, the research
further makes the case against him and his methodology. But for my Method, it
is great news that it is substantiated by the latest research - especially in
the categories of rhythm and tonality as well as improvisation and creativity
in early pedagogy. I have been making a case for rhythmic music in the
beginning pedagogy for 30 years, and certainly in my books...
So that has been great here. I am a little surprised that you keep bringing up
my distributor as somehow not being supportive of me for some reason. Those
comments were directed to the unfair verbal attacks against me here. You asked
about my credibility and questioned it. Of the two of us, I am on NPR for an
hour on stations across the country this very weekend featuring the O'Connor
Method! I am invited to speak at educational events all the time. So you are
going way too far on that. That is the type of abusive behavior that we can do
without. This is the problem we have, and you are stooping to be in the center
of that problem it looks like. Instead of you insulting the insulter (at the
top of this thread) you are insulting the insulted. No one should be calling a
colleague names here I believe, I certainly have not done that, and I have
given plenty of compliments out even though I don't know most of these people's
work personally. But you are doing that now. I wish you would re consider your
latest remarks and delete them frankly. We can do better than that Adam.
Onwards! Thanks.
Adam, the words "yet another
unsubstantiated tirade and rant" as applied to my Suzuki Cult Blog
contains an awful lot of substantiating from not only records/facts of history,
but his own bios as well as quotes from Suzuki teachers talking about the
existence of a cult and other Suzuki teachers' fears of the cult and how
damaging it was personally to them. The end of the 2-part blog ends with John
Kendall's own admission of a cult that was dangerous with Suzuki as its
figurehead. His own writing of those words substantiate his early concern and
later his looking the other way on it.
It was eery because Kendall wrote it in one of the editions of his 1966 book
about Suzuki but deleted it in the other editions. I make a case for it that
when money started coming in, it was probably not very good to have the
President of the SAA out there talking about a cult of Suzuki when it comes to
young children being involved. Seems reasonable. Pathetic and unfortunate
position, but reasonable if you felt like you had to make the best of it. The
researchers helped us towards this stuff. It was right under our nose this
whole time. Like I said above, if it weren't for the fact that John Kendall,
the proclaimed "evangelist" of the Suzuki Method by the New York Times
in his obituary had not identified the cultism in the 1960s as it relates to
Suzuki's following and being dangerous, then I probably would not have written
that article, or at least that extensive of one. But I think it is a huge
exclamation point. It goes to the point the article makes in that he could not
have become successful with out his followers writing biographies full of lies
about him under his direction, in order to market him. Because he had no music
credentials to sell himself to Western academics.
Also John Kendall's videos that were posted above, were pretty amazing and
substantiate a lot of what I had been saying in pedagogy. He obviously had a
change of heart later in his life. Out of that 30 minutes of interview, he
probably talks about Suzuki one-tenth of the time. Just with that, it tells you
something. Especially when your interviewer is a Suzuki teacher! We are
actually going to take one of those videos and transcribe what John said about
how Suzuki was opposite of Waldorf. Opposite of creative thinking and learning
in favor of technical and rote in the beginning years. I think that is a
powerful message coming from him especially. So in some sense I welcomed this
thread as Kendall substantiated my philosophy on music instruction. Also he
talks about the introduction of rhythm for early pedagogy that he had not
realized before until recently. That is something I have been touting since I
was a kid actually. Kendall asked to see my first two books to review them,
just before he passed away. He gave them two thumbs up.
Well, I was about ready to answer
the umpteenth question from Adam tonight and he pulled all of his many posts.
He must have posted 20 here that he deleted. So, I am not sure what that was
about. I will just answer this other comments and paste it here instead.
Carl, we really don't need Suzuki to learn how to "solidly" walk on
the violin, just like we don't need it for guitar, or for horn. There is
nothing there that is worth holding on to, if Suzuki is just being considered
for early child development. Research is out and it is strong. It points away
from Suzuki's rote-repetition-memorization-ear training to a much more creative
and holistic approach to music via rhythm, tonality, improvisation and I have
fashioned it all through American music. This is the new foundation that string
playing students must address if there will be a healthy string environment
going forward. The Suzuki era has produced, almost NO top classical soloists,
player-composers, arrangers, improvisers, and ensemble leaders. In short, it really
has failed the violin and related string instruments. We need a much better
start for kids today. That is why I authored the O'Connor Method. More
information is here. Thanks.
'Mark O'Connor is a true American
genius. He is bringing to our culture our music, and he's doing it in a way
that celebrates both the tradition and beauty of our heritage with the pedagogy
that can teach our string players how to play this music in a technically sound
and healthy way, in addition to the obvious importance of American string music
in the grand historical tradition. He is an absolutely ground breaking artist
and his commitment to defining what American music is, is absolutely essential
to defining what is unique about our culture and what we need to instill in
every American musician who plays a string instrument. His contributions as an
artist, teacher, composer, pedagogue are incalculable and will be remembered
for ages to come in American music.'
Dr. Robert Livingston Aldridge - Composer, Director of Music, Mason Gross
School of the Arts, Rutgers University
Eric, I don't know why he took off
and removed his post, but he just endorsed me at Linked in for "curriculum
design" and "music education" so it appears that all of my posts
here did pay off! Thanks, and I will take at look at your link soon!
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Eric,
I love it!!
Dude, so cool to have the young man early on say 'Major or Mixo!' and
questionsl like, 'what about supertonic?' I don't think some folks in the
education community would even believe this depth of listening is possible for
kids this young, but I've had similar experiences. Then they come back to you a
week later with some tune they've heard and are finding the same harmonic
functions in; it's so edifying.
And even when you said, "I've got you confused somehow' they probably
mentally slipped into Dorian as you had just reiterated the ii chord then I
then ii. Then they couldn't find their way back to major cruising through the
secondary dominant-to-dominant.
Heady stuff, and totally doable. So nice to hear the kids singing their way
back into it towards the end.
He guys! I would like to caution
you just about one thing. So much talk of the "secondary
dominant-to-dominant" is surely going to cause some diehard Suzuki
teachers to believe that somehow you are encouraging further dominance in their
obedience training! The "secondary" in obedience training being the
teacher, and then to the dominant parent for the resolution?? Eegads no!
Harmonic functions to 1st graders,
continued. #musedchat #musiced
Thanks, Ron. I think so about Ed too. At least I'd hope so.
Mark,
I'm not totally clear about what you're saying.
Let me see if I can fill in any misunderstandings about what I'm teaching.
These guys already audiate V/7 of V in major (which I have named double
dominant) from several songs:
Jingle Bells - "in a one horse open sleigh"
Workin' on the Railroad - "just to pass the time away"
Take Me Out to the Ballgame - "I don't care if I ever get back" and
"old ball" (game).
and in several other songs
So, we are naming tonic, dominant, subdominant functions only when they can
recognize them by ear first and where they belong in a song. So when they
distinguish among those three functions, we then can NAME double dominant,
which is one of many secondary dominants. Double dominant is the specific
function that is V7 of V. I don't use the term secondary dominants because they
comprise a group of functions that have no specific meaning. I have taught
(secondary dominants such as) V7/ii, V7/vi, but never from a theoretical
explanation. Only through naming what it is that the students can already
audiate. I also teach a string of functions (circle of 5ths, in theoretical
terms) I named quadruple dominant, triple dominant, double dominant, dominant,
tonic (as in the song, Five Foot Two, Eyes of Blue, Sweet Georgia Brown, and
maybe a couple others.)
Can you help me understand what you are cautioning me about? I'm curious as to
your train of thought. Perhaps there's something else I should consider along
this line.
Just to be clear, I do not teach theory—as in names of notes and lines and
spaces and note values or scales—to get this and ear training done. It is
almost like teaching the alphabet to a child that does not speak his own
language with full comprehension in order for him to better understand what is
being said. The alphabet has no meaning. Neither does an A, or a quarter note.
All of it must be inside a context such as a tonality (and it's harmonic
functions), or a meter. The sound TU (to, too, two) doesn't mean anything until
it's inside the context of a sentence. Then you know which of the three TUs it
is.
Scales can be useful technical exercises down the line, and knowing the names
of notes and what the durations of notes look like is important, but not at the
early stages, and not until children a well-versed in composition,
improvisation, and certainly not until they are generalizing from and with the
basic vocabulary of music—tonal, rhythmic and harmonic.
Expression is another conversation for another day.
Eric and Ron - I was using Ron's
quote of harmonic terminology as a play on words to expose a weakness in
Suzuki's heavy handed regimen of repetition and drills on every piece in their
books for years. It was based from an antiquated way of training music
students. So in my post, my pun started with the 2nd dominant-dominant
reference in my thinking about Suzuki's antiquated "trilogy" of the
learning unit - Teacher/Parent/Student - or in my spontaneous pun 2nd Dominant
to Dominant to the Student in one heck of a WWII era Authentic (Japanese)
Cadence. I know more pun...ouch! I am in a silly mood today perhaps!
Eric, that is very cool, so very
good. Just to give you an idea of how kids are responding to the O'Connor
Method, here is a 6 year-old improvising! These possibilities are really
starting to emerge in string educations if I can just get my Method to more studios
and schools. The kids are going to really take off on it. He is improvising and
playing with inherent rhythmic integrity and understanding. You can just see
the little guy's mind think creatively in real time, not just think by rote
memorization, but invent! So fantastic! So when are you signing us up to give
some teacher training for string students at Peabody and BSO?? Eric! This is
beautiful, and your work is too! It is the future of music ed in America!
RE: coming to Baltimore
They, as in Peabody, haven't even let me do any training outside of my
department! They're as backward as most higher level institutions regarding
music education training. I will bring your name up with one boss of mine (at
the BSO Orchkids program) whose ear I can bend a bit. The other is likely not
to be receptive to anything new. He's in his first week as the dean and we have
very "strong"—as in profitable— piano and string and guitar and ?
Suzuki departments. Blecch!
Eric, Profitable? Peabody is too
serious of a music school for Suzuki certainly. Even teachers themselves claim
that the majority of their students won't be in the profession. Sounds like a
very odd fit. Of course Suzuki is profitable, but so is Kmart. That doesn't
mean you have to bring a "less-than Method" into Curtis and Julliard
and completely brand it as that to the exclusion of other approaches and ideas?
Does not sound very educational. I have been staying with a teacher who has to
teach a few students half Suzuki and half O'Connor still because of the parent.
The first half of the lesson is excruciating. The student is in Suzuki 4. Just
the worst God awful violin music ever created! Really! And then today for
instance, they started working on playing El Rancho Grande from my Book II, and
the teacher and students were playing a duet... the students sounded like
another player it was so spirited and joyous. Her pitch was better, her rhythm.
It was like walking in a dark room and switching the light on for her, and for
me from the other room. And I am really trying to be not biased when I report
that. Really! Maybe I could have a meeting with Peabody. They certainly know I
am. I did a presentation and demonstration per their request about 10 years
ago, before my Method was out. Here is a clip of that demonstration at Peabody!
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
This is--to me at least--one of
the things we simply must accept. As much as we wish the cult of personality
side of things would vanish under the weight of evidence (Gordon collected
ample data in the late '60's for goodness sakes on how we learn, but change was
not forthcoming, Suzuki's lack of artist productivity is evidence as well, but
change is not forthcoming. What Eric's students and my students can do is
evidence, but change still doesn't happen).
The truth is people follow people, not data. That's why I'm so enthused about
you, Mark, becoming curious about, and perhaps getting to know, Gordon's
research. Your musicianship, methods, and fame combined with--and possibly
tweaked over time in accordance with--Gordon's ideas could be a terrific boon
for all of music education; not just strings.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
So I'm politely suggesting that
you be unabashed about using your fame to be that next personality we can form
a cult around. It's just that the cult of O'Connor-ism will have some methods,
not just madness!!
We are proud to announce a website
that features the rich historical text and stories behind all of the American
Classics repertoire contained in the O'Connor Method to date (three books). The
website concentrates specifically on the classics and standard repertoire in
what we are calling A New American School of String Playing!
Historical Text Researched and Authored by Mark O'Connor
“This piece goes beyond
"novel". It's utterly groundbreaking. We're so used to the idea of a
concerto part being written out for the soloist, but here the soloist's
musicality is tested to the utmost with a totally improvised part. In fact, without
a total reworking of the music education system - the way Mark has not only
advocated but actually put into practice, including an emphasis on the lost art
of improvisation - a concerto like this is totally unplayable by the vast
majority of conservatory grads.”
– Paul Haas (Conductor/Composer, Music Director of the Symphony of Northwest
Arkansas, founder/Artistic Director of Sympho)
For The O'Connor Method Book One
(solo violin, viola, cello and orchestra books inclusive)
1. American Song Structures
1. Musical Variation
1. Playing Other Parts Of The Music: (Experiential Variety)
1. Voicing - Counterpoint
1. Textural Variation
1. Rhythmic Feel And Groove
1. Tuning Your Notes To Chords
1. Variety: Keys - Tonalities
1. Theoretical Knowledge
1. American Musical Language - Mother Tongue
1. Many American Styles
1. Music of Different Eras
1. Musical Histories
1. Diversity & American Democracy
1. Find Your Expression
1. Context: Formal And Informal Settings
1. Bridging Solo & Ensemble Repertoire
1. Multi-faceted Mentoring
1. Visual Stimulation (Layout And Mapping)
1. Going Green
Suzuki's "mother tongue" or many of his other philosophies of
teaching is not going to be of much use in the O'Connor "Book I"
because there are several other and more important principles of early music
education and pedagogy employed. For a description of each point, may I refer
to my full essay on 20 Points of Creativity below. Thank you!
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
To any dispassionate viewer that
reveals quite a bit regarding Suzuki's musicianship. But for me you've hit on
something so much larger and more important than Suzuki himself.
Specifically, Mark, when you speak of the ear training required to play-out of
self-created holes, I feel that that idea should positively SCREAM to any
honest, traditionally-taught music educator.
Many among us NEVER had--in any part of our formal education--the opportunity
to improvise (poorly initially), and then subsequently be taught how to use
"creativity, improvisation, ad lib, tune writing, variation, modulation,
altered idea(s), episodic run(s), etc,"
While many learn informally how to do this by jamming on their own and in
garage-bands, the vast majority of us classically-trained teachers simply
worked our tails off to bash music (that was over our heads) into our hands by
borrowing the ears of the professors we so wished to impress.
The ear training of which you speak is virtually non-existent in classical
training. The musically dangerous (and therefore much more educationally
compelling) 'take this progression, loop it, and improvise over it
come-what-may' kind of thing that the 6-year old C.J. is doing in your earlier
video simply doesn't happen.
Instead ear training is safer; much more static. It's more 'identify this
inversion,' or write this progression in 4-parts with no parallel octaves or
fifths,' etc. It's not living discovery through music, it's
paralysis-by-analysis.
Which brings us, of course to what you, Gordon, Grunow, & others are trying
to do. What Paul Haas said so plainly, "...a total reworking of the music
education system...including an emphasis on the lost art of improvisation...”
So while I enthusiastically applaud you, please do keep your flame-retardant'
suit nearby!! Because sadly you're going to suffer obloquy from many
thoughtless persons and many 'leaders' who stand to lose their boat payments,
should their ineffectuality be revealed.
There's a line in the movie Moneyball that goes, "The first one through
the wall always gets bloodied. Always. Every time."
I've read about your past. You've dealt with worse. So you lead; we'll follow.
"Hi! I write this message
from Chihuahua Mexico to thank and congratulate him on his teaching method.
I am a music teacher and I created a children's musical initiation center
called Tamborela and study their methods. Children are very happy learning to play
violin and cello with his compositions. This year we will begin with conductor
material and are eager to begin studying-
Beautiful Skies is a beautiful item and children love playing that song. We'd
love to aisitir to training for teachers and would like to know where I can see
the course information for teachers.
Music education in Mexico is going through an important process and I am glad
that the children of this new century can be inspired by his method.
I send my sincere greetings and all my admiration. With love Yahaira
Meraz"
(And does Yahaira know that we have "Jessie Polka" in the Method Book
III - written in Chihuahua, Mexico? It's true!)
Let's hear Suzuki on his teaching,
playing an ad lib performance here in this video. The still picture also linked
below, makes it obvious that this was a training session for string teachers! The
effort for Suzuki to try to remember two different phrases of Jingle Bells for
his pun, fell flat both times, not being able to recall the notes from his own
memorization-ear training/mother tongue philosophy that he was so proud of. But
while that approach obviously fails him on these popular phrases he had in his
head, he could not get the notes from his head to the fingers either time of
Jingle Bells! And he stops much like a child has to stop mid phrase each time,
when stumped. He doesn't have the proper ear training that musicians require in
order to play himself out of the hole he dug for himself, either through
creativity, improvisation, ad lib, tune writing, variation, modulation, altered
idea, episodic run etc..., and at the very least, cover up the fact that he
forgot the well-known melody from the very country where he was creating the
pun.
A good musician could fake it - throw in a double stop, a broken arpeggio -
anything - pretend you are a musician! Folks, this is not musicianship or
artistry. We have been led by the wrong guy for the last 50 years, to aid us
into great violin playing through pedagogy in the 20th and 21st century with
these very same learning principles for children. Our string culture really
needs to elevate considerably, rather than going backwards like we have in the
last 50 years, in order for us to compete with the other instrument groups and
stay relevant in America! Suzuki didn't know a thing about American music,
actually this video represents perhaps the totality of his American music
output! Two badly played phrases of Jingle Bells.
(One Suzuki supporter actually wrote to me and said of this video, that Suzuki
routinely made mistakes on purpose, just so the kids could think that he was
human...or something to that effect!" --- mistakes on purpose - for
children!" It is all beyond the pale).
As plainly illustrated in the
video, Suzuki is not a creative player or person, therefore his method leaves
out creativity as a principle of learning and an essential element of great
teaching. Since he authored a method (not just simply a teacher) the standard
he is held to is much higher than a single teacher. He authored musical
creativity right out of his methodology. And we have paid the price.
Memorization-Ear Training and Repetition
1. Memorization is not a musical talent.
2. Memorization-Ear Training is not as important of a musical process as it was
thought to be. Proper Ear Training involves the ability to listen and interpret
intervals, chords, rhythm and musical style by using one’s ears, not just one’s
memory.
A Case For A New American School Of String Playing The Trajectory of Violin And
Strings Compared To Other Instruments Over The Last 50 Years
1. Guitar (the guitar has risen to be one of the most popular instruments in
the country)
2. Brass (because of Marching Band and Jazz Bands in schools, they have
overtaken strings in popularity)
3. Percussion (there are more percussion concertos written and performed today
than new cello concertos)
4. Winds (Concert Band has overtaken the symphony orchestra in most high
schools and universities)
5. Keyboards (because of the advent of modern keyboards and synthesizers, their
accessibility to composition and popular music as well as the good number of
classical music soloists, they have pulled ahead of strings in importance)
Confessions of a Former Suzuki
Teacher by Pamela Wiley
"Confession #1. I don’t miss “Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star.” The
comparative benefits of using “Boil ‘em Cabbage Down” as a first tune are
undeniable – no string crosses, starting in the middle of the hand, small
intervals, simple structure, strong harmonic movement. The kids love it and
find it very easy to learn. Why “Twinkle” then? I think probably the opening
interval of the fifth made the tune appear to be an obvious choice for a first
tune on the violin – getting the first two notes for free. However, the rest of
the piece is problematic on several levels. After forty years of starting
students on “Twinkle” and fours years of starting them on “Cabbage” and
comparing the difference, I am now convinced that using “Boil ‘em Cabbage Down”
with C# as the center of the tune, the center of the hand and the center of the
A Major chord lays a more solid musical and technical foundation from the very
beginning. The tune moves in half and whole steps from and back to C#
establishing the important smaller intervals and the important improvising
concept of upper and lower neighbors. And starting on the A string alone helps
so much with establishing good bow balancing from the very beginning. The fifth
can come later. And it quickly does – beautifully opening up the violin to the
E string in “Beautiful Skies,” the very next tune."
Read the rest of the article here by the lead teacher trainer and editor of the
O'Connor Method, the former director of the Pennsylvania Suzuki Institute and
the current director of the upcoming O'Connor Method Camp in Charleston in two
weeks:
Twinkle Twinkle Little Star as a
starting tune for beginning violin has many problems. That is why Boil 'em
Cabbage Down, the beginning tune in the O'Connor is much, much better. The
issues: Twinkle is too long of a form for kids to master. It simply takes too
long to learn and the music becomes a laborious process right from the very
beginning. By contrast, Cabbage has just one part. The string-cross is one of
the hardest techniques to acquire in the beginning and Twinkle is saddled with
them throughout as Suzuki's first tune. I pick up the string-cross on my 2nd
tune in the lyrical Beautiful Skies where I introduce the string-cross from
open string to open string within the melody. Cabbage stays on one string
throughout the tune - the A string. Spending a lot of time on the A string in
the beginning as I call for on Cabbage, balances the bow arm and frames the
body for proper position. Too much time on the E string in the beginning can
bring in issues of a lower and collapsed bow arm as well as getting a thin and
tinny sound in the child's ear. Cabbages only uses 1/2 of the A scale, while my
2nd tune Beautiful Skies fully reveals the full A major scale within its
melodic structure.
Cabbage unlike Twinkle, has clear harmonic movement with each note of the tune
to a specific chord. Twinkle's melody meanders around quite a bit and not even
adults are sure what chord each part of the melody is in. Another benefit of
Cabbage is that the tune starts with the tallest finger (the 2nd finger) and
this sets up the hand position and frames the hand on the violin at the
beginning of the tune during the actual set up for the tune. Twinkle starts on
open strings and the hand can be out of shape and frame during the set up and
opening notes and often is. Problematic for young children. There is nothing
like starting "correctly" even for professionals.
Also Cabbage is hoedown - a rhythmic tune. Twinkle is a lyrical tune. But what
are the first variations that children learn in music? Rhythmic variations.
That's right. So it is much more holistic and artistic to apply rhythmic
variations to a rhythmic tune. Yes technically one can apply rhythmic
variations to anything, like Amazing Grace - but why would one want to? There
is no good reason to. That is why rhythmic variations to Twinkle sound
"academic" and rhythmic variations to Cabbage sound more musical
because it is artistically connected to the material. The rhythmic variations
that I feature for beginners are the same types of rhythmic variations I would
play on stage in Cabbage. (Suzuki was not a good musician, he would not have
known this)
Also, the thing that allows Cabbage to be a better beginning tune creatively
than Twinkle is that it allows even beginners to think of music from the
standpoint of improvisation, not just by rote. Cabbage allows for
improvisational ideas to take place much more easily for a beginner. I feature
creativity in my Method, not just learning by
mimicking-rote-repetition-memorization like Suzuki does. I want children to
some ownership of their music.
In addition to that "Boil 'em Cabbage Down" is an American classic,
it is an African American hoedown from 400 years ago, so the history is rich.
The hoedown is attractive to all children out of the box. The hoedown acts as
great inspiration for American Classical music as well as Rock 'n' Roll and Hip
Hop, so the cultural relevance is on full display. It is also a professional
tune and is being played on stage somewhere by pros today I am quite sure. I
loved doing a version with the great trumpeter Wynton Marsalis at a jazz
festival in France. The video of that can be seen right here - linked.
In sum, Cabbage hands down blows Twinkle out of the water as a first tune for
learning violin and strings, and is featured in the New School of American String
Playing! Enjoy!
Finally to the John Kendall
Interview posted at the beginning of this thread. I largely agree with Kendall
on what he has to say about Suzuki. We transcribed the pertinent part of this
video clip here. Thanks, MOC
* "When Paul Rolland was active in teaching, I was a good friend of his in
the early days. We were both in Illinois, and he of course was working on his
own systematic approach to pedagogy and died unfortunately when he was
relatively a young person. And some of his [Paul Rolland's] disciples thought
well this is a good chance to integrate, so they give workshops on Suzuki, Paul
Rolland and Orff and try to pull all of those three together... or Kodaly or
something. And I watched it for a while, and I asked myself...at their age how
could they be trained in both those methods of Rolland and Suzuki? I found out
that they would mostly just do one or the other and introduce a couple of
ideas. I talked to some of them and asked them why do you feel do you have to
integrate those? Why can't they be each one creating its own ambiance as it
goes along?
If you accept certain presumptions about Suzuki, then there are things of Paul
Rolland's that won't work in that setting and vice versa. Especially having to
do with the selection of literature in relation to the technical aspects. You
can't do daka daka da da and use it on Paul Rolland's pieces because they don't
work on that. They weren't intended to. He was intending to use this kind of
approach (bows smoothly), which has its on validity. But you can't play
Twinkle, Twinkle with that kind of a stroke and make it come out right. So I
have tried to persuade the teachers who were doing that, go ahead and do your
own thing. If you find something that integrates, then use it but be careful
you are not starting the student on two entirely different approaches to bowing
for example. It is just going to get him mixed up. Later on you can do any kind
of bowing...flexible. You can introduce methods from the most divergent. But in
the early stages, it seems to me that stepwise, building has to be done with
certain building blocks at first. But Paul and I used to discuss that, one of
his students went out and just had a terrible time and was trying to teach
Suzuki. He said why do the Suzuki people have to be so clannish and so just,
doing their own thing? He says why can't they be eclectic? I think part of the
answer was that they could be eclectic but they wouldn't have much validity in
either, they would have a foot in both camps and wouldn't be able to clarify as
they went along. And that student eventually had to quit the job because the
parents said that this is not Suzuki. And the parents were right, but what the
problem was they were trying to label things, not just do things the way they
want to. I thought that teachers should teach they way they want to, but not
try to inject some other thing onto it to make it sound respectable.
I had a symphony player from St. Louis come over one time and said I want to
start a Suzuki program in St. Louis, and I just want to get your ideas about
how I should start the program. I am going to use [other method books], I won't
have any records, I won't have the parents come to the lessons because they
just get in the way. I won't let the student listen to any recordings. I said,
why do you want to call it a Suzuki Method? Those are all principles of the
Suzuki... Well, that is what the parents are asking for -- Suzuki. I said, you
go ahead a do it but you are going to run into dissatisfaction when the parents
realize you are not teaching what you set out to do. Why don't you are start a
Jones Violin School for young violinists and teach any way you want to. But you
don't need to use the Suzuki name just to make it respectable. So he did that actually,
he didn't use Suzuki."
Note: We could not agree more with
John Kendall as he speaks about the Suzuki Method with much more objectivity
later in his life. He describes the issues of blending other methods and
principles into Suzuki and how that is not advisable and problematic for
students. We agree that Suzuki is something very specific and it cannot grow
outwards to assimilate other methodologies to make a new kind of logical
pedagogy. Suzuki is tied to its original principles and its literature. -A New
American School of String Playing, The O'Connor Method
Note: It would be impossible for Shinichi Suzuki to have included "improv,
creativity, etc" in his own Method as he was not a creative musician,
could not improvise, etc. He would not have been able to author something in
pedagogy that he himself didn't do nor understand. As evidenced here in this
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnWv3pnRykI
wedding
and mariachi violinist, music teacher, songwriter, Spanish/English translation
and interpretation
Does the Mark O'Connor method have
any systematic study of improvisation for young and beginning strings students?
What I have discovered through years of teaching is that improvisation is
something that is also best taught from the very beginning.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"With ALL my respects to
every member:
I recently joined this group........and now I see that the same Discussion is
going
on at the Chamber Music Group...........with other members and M. O
Connor......
Is this all necessary..........and why did Mrs. Freeman bring this topic also
here?
It is Obvious I am from Holland ..........for me too much to understand .....
why is M. O Connor so important to kind of fight against ???????
Good luck to ALL of you....................sincerely , Caroline"
---Caroline Vriesendorp
It's all part of Mark's marketing strategy. He is going the route of "all
publicity is good publicity" apparently. His actions indicate that he has
no problem offending as many people as possible so long as more and more people
hear about the great Mark O'Connor and his method books :)
Benjamin, yes. Creativity should
be from the beginning with young students and that is where Suzuki got it wrong
with his rote-repetition-memorization-ear-training method. The material is all
wrong for creativity. It is an all technical approach that does not serve the
violin world. And we have paid the price for it.
Incredible press on the Method to date! This is a lot more than you can say for
Suzuki's mainstream press.
With regard to Mathew Weiss who has been following me around the internet like
an obsessed weirdo, he follows me here! Maybe it is just jealousy...We find
that everywhere on the internet. It is a shame. He keeps saying that Suzuki is
a better classical violinist that I am! It is laughable! But as far as a
contest between who can play better classical violin, Suzuki or myself? That is
going to be a lopsided score in my favor. I could work up the Tchaik or others
- take a few months off and perform it. Suzuki could never do that in a million
years! Because of his lack of violin technique. Some people have wanted me to
do the Bach partitas as a performer etc. But I made a decision to just perform
my own works when I launched my solo career 25 years ago. Not that I don't love
Beethoven, my favorite composer, but it is not in my interest to perform it.
All agree around me these days, my time is much better spent developing new
repertoire for violin, for orchestra, for chamber music, performing my existing
repertoire and authoring the Method with the American School of String Playing
track.
He keeps mentioning the European composers! They are not in the American School
of String Playing obviously. But violin technique is violin technique. If you
can read, play in tune, bow up and down with good sound and move your fingers,
you will get into your middle school orchestra and the child can take it from
there where they want to. If they want to follow in the orchestra direction.
They they can get 6 years of conservatory training and 2 degrees, and try their
hand at auditions for a major orchestra in order to have a performing career.
These same auditions that Mr. Weiss never won with his own Suzuki violin
training. He lives in Seattle, but of course does not play with the Seattle
Symphony. If these students want to do an American ensemble approach, then that
is also there for them. But the current system of Suzuki training is broken. It
just has not worked. The strings have been in a greater deficit than ever
before during the last 50 years and that lies at the feet of Suzuki and his
pedagogy and training of violin players not to be creative musicians. And then
on top of it, it produces stuck in the mud attitudes of Weiss.
Since my ability is questioned by
a teacher on the thread - here is a nice look at my triple concerto! Enjoy!
'March of the Gypsy Fiddler' (III) Ahn Trio, Composed by Mark O'Connor for Pro
Musica Orch
"I'm usually pretty snobbish about my classical music, not really liking
much from the 20th century onwards, but this is a wonderful piece! I really
enjoy it very much."
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Years ago, a good friend who works
as an ombudsman at a respected university suggested that there are valid
reasons for placing a termination of interaction time-frame on heated debates.
When further exchanges prove to overshadow a collective goal of closure, then
what results is a prolongation and escalation of negative spiraling and
violations of common respect.
Many have suggested that it is time to put a 'silence' to this thread and to
agree to disagree.
To make it simple, a quick vote may help.
# 1 = Cease the Conflict and replace with Peace (private message any further
discussion)
# 2 = Continue to obliterate the message of music being a positive vehicle of
communication
wedding
and mariachi violinist, music teacher, songwriter, Spanish/English translation
and interpretation
It is wonderful to get a personal
response from the great Mark O'Connor. I saw you perform live with Stephane
Grapelli and Dave Grisman at a concert in the Berklee College of Music
performance center in 1978, and I also own the LP that was made from that concert.
Mr. O'Connor, you played the guitar, not the violin in that concert.
How does your method specifically address the teaching of creativity and
improvisation, especially for many teachers who have been deprived of such
training in their formative undergraduate years in the college, university, or
conservatory?
Here is a link showing some of my blues-rock-latin fiddle playing.
I invite you to watch a video of our version of "Work Song" by Nate
Adderley. The coda is an original song, "The Treasure/El Tesoro", in
English and Spanish, by Benjamin Smeall. Vocals, violin, guitars, and bass by
Benjamin Smeall. Vocals and drums by Arthur Smeall. Vocals by Joseph Smeall.
Les invito mirar a un video de nuestra versión de "Work Song" por
Nate Adderley. La coda es una original bilingüe, "The Treasure/El
Tesoro", por Benjamín Smeall. Vocales, violín, guitarras, y bajo por
Benjamín Smeall. Vocales y batería por Arturo Gabriel Smeall. Vocales por
Joseph Germán Smeall.
I attended a wonderful speech on
music education by the dean of music at University of Miami. It was
exceptional. Paraphrasing, he said that the "technical" training that
Japan developed in the 1960s was copied by us in America, but it was not good
for Japan and it wasn't good for us. He held his arms outstretched and said on
one hand is the technical training part of music, and on the other is the hope,
love, intention, aspiration, communicative... etc etc part of music. He said
children must have the latter and it is only achieved through musical
creativity in the young ages. He mentioned a bare bones elementary school where
the university adopted it for their musical project last year. They have
masters students come in three days a week with instruments and teach music.
The music component is the only thing that has changed in the last year at the
school and that school went from a D school to an A school he said!
They teach my Method in that school! The speaker's name today was dean Shelly
Berg, jazz pianist. There were grown men visible moved to tears with these
stories. It was a great day for music in the school advocacy!
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Everyone,
I believe we hit a milestone on another LinkedIn thread yesterday that would
explain why music from the standard classical music repertoire is absent from
The Mark O'Connor Method:
Mark himself has very little training/exposure to classical music and cannot
play it himself!
Though he is an absolute whiz at playing his own compositions (some even refer
to Mark as "genius" in this category), and he has the technical
capabilities on par with classical concert violinists, he has not put in the
time that is required to develop a deep understanding of the classical music
genre, which is what is required in order to play the following composer's
works at level of a professional orchestral player or concert artist:
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Brahms
Schumman
Vivaldi
Corelli
etc.
The Suzuki Method is designed to teach children how to play Classical Music
from a very early age.
The Mark O'Connor Method is designed to teach kids how to play Fiddle, Folk,
Americana, and Mark O'Connor originals.
Mark's assault on the Suzuki method is like a guy with a home-made ultralight
airplane who writes treatises on how much better his airplane is than the Ford
Motor Company's entire line of cars. His airplane has a superior rate of climb,
glide ratio, short field takeoff, and so on. Meanwhile, Ford representatives
and enthusiasts point out that his ultralight really doesn't taxi very well and
at least needs some brake lights, turn signals, and seat belts before it will
be allowed on city streets :)
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Correct, Caroline. It is sad.
Civility, rational analysis, and intelligent argument seem to give way to
personal attacks when someone feels their 'turf' is being threatened. It's the
basest form of territorialism. It's ape-like. And childish. And just sad.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Ron,
The Suzuki teachers, students, and supporters really are the victims of all of
this. Due to Mark's star-power, people are initially apt to buy all his attacks
on a method that really works great and has had all the kinks worked out of it
a long time ago.
I do acknowledge that Mark is a fantastic player and composer within his own
genre and that is all fine.
What is not fine is all this other stuff that goes on and on
unchecked---especially since kids and their families are involved.
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
“Music training from preschool to
postsecondary education is common in most nations because involvement in music
is considered a fundamental component of human behavior. Music, like language,
is an accomplishment that distinguishes us as humans.” from “Understanding
Music” - Yudkin, J. on (Wikipedia)
Music students learn from reading post and witnessing the behavior displayed by
teachers in online public groups. Music educator’s groups should stand as a
testament to the art of our craft.
Further public discord damages the message and gives fuel to why administrators
do not deal with temperamental artists. Negative peripheral results then
include: removal of music in curriculum, down-sizing disbanding programs, lost
jobs, lost purpose.
This method war” endless fermata, tri-tone of cacophony” needs resolution, via
complete termination of public argument.
Who has a great new thread idea? I put up a funny brass band multi-tasker
video, hoping to lighten the mood. It does show true cooperation in the arts.
How about innovative positive new postings?
Peace is a behavior. Music should be the vehicle that projects this harmony,
con brio!
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Everyone,
It's looking like some people are really taking offense to my idea of Mark not
being able to play classical repertoire, so I may need to apologize for going
to that extreme.
Instead, I do want to address the notion that Suzuki student are supposedly
robots, can't improvise, and so on which is nonsense. I am a product of the
Suzuki Method and can provide many counter-examples with my own performances of
music from many genres, including a couple of Jazz standards and a well-known
Latin tune.
If you'd like to hear what a grown-up Suzuki student can do, please go here:
What I am asking is for Mathew
Weiss to quit writing me and targeting me on line, lying about my music,
ability and method. He has targeted me, singling me out as an individual giving
me verbal attacks and with intimidation for the better part of a year now. I
have not done that to anyone. He seems obsessed with me, while at the same time
he seems to really like what I do, he belittles, insults and lies continually.
I would like for him to please leave me alone. I should not have to leave
Linkedin because of an online bully that is left here to have free reign with
no monitoring from adm. Before he came on, these two threads about me and about
the Method were both considerable and long. So there is interest here in what I
have to say and certainly in my Method. I should not have to leave because of a
bully, targeting individuals. I will be speaking with my attorney about the
bullying, intimidation and libel by him. There could be some serious issues
here.
Once again, it is impossible for me to commit slander and libel to a deceased
person or a corporation. (Suzuki and the SAA)
The things that are said about myself here, are designed to hurt me, my
reputation and my brand - and that potentially means a loss in income. If
Mathew Weiss keeps it up, there could be calculated damages accessed. At the
very least, he will have to retain a lawyer on libel accusation and the
expenses will add up while the lawyers see what kind of damages this has caused
turning away teachers from my products. I have asked him to stop many times,
and there are witnesses to that here. All I can say once again, is this the
"beautiful heart" of a Suzuki teacher that they claim to have? The
"good citizen" they brag about creating? You have to shake your head.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Mark,
When you go to your attorney, be sure to include our thread, where you accused
me of lying and called me a cult member, based on your "assumptions"
about me, your word not mine.
This discussion should be removed by the manager as it is neither productive
nor professional.
wedding
and mariachi violinist, music teacher, songwriter, Spanish/English translation
and interpretation
Mark O'Connor is obviously a great
virtuosos in either the fiddling or violin fields. He has performed with YoYo
Ma, etc. and composed bluegrass variations on Vivaldi's "the four
seasons". An attack on his superior musicianship only invalidates the
argument of the attacker. What is in the best interests of the students we
serve, is to make a fair and valid comparison between all the different methods
of teaching music.
Janet, that is completely
different. I am not targeting you to ruin your product! That was phrased as a
question and it was in a dialogue once, and tongue in cheek. This particular
libel committed on my by Suzuki representatives like Mathew Weiss is repeated
attacks on my ability, playing, character etc... any lawyers would see it as
libel I believe. We'll will find out. Thanks.
Caroline, I don't believe you know
my character. This is my motto, never let the bullies win. I was bullied in
junior school for all kinds of things, mainly being the violinist nerd, and it
went beyond the name calling, where once a group of kids attacked me at school
and put me in the hospital with a damaged leg that required a cast for two
months. Online bullying should not be tolerated. I came on to the forum here
answering yet another attack from Suzuki people. Once again, I am an artist, a
musician, an author... I have every write to criticize a violin method that is
not very good, and its author who lied about most everything to get ahead and
to sell his method to the West. This is relevant to what I do. Someone coming
here to attack my character is not relevant, and to attack my playing ability
is also not relevant. I have not asked any of you, how good of players you are.
What if I demanded to see how each of you played before you communicate with
me? See, it would not be relevant. This thread is about a violin methods and
education, not to see who is the best player and composer here. I doubt any of
you would want to compete with me on those two levels anyway. So thanks!
Benjamin, thanks for the nice
message. It is great to get your posts, a nice breath of fresh air here!
And Ron, thanks for pointing the obvious out for Mathew Weiss. He looks very
small attacking a multi-Grammy winning musician and composer. It is pathetic
stuff from the Suzuki diehards once again. Astonishing.
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Mark, in reference to you
suggesting anyone of you (us, I guess) to play in order for their opinion to be
validated. Let's bring about positive results from all of this dissonance.
I accept the challenge to perform without the hint of reservation, that is if
you want to join me.
Violin and viola repertoire is fantastic! What do you want to try?
Handel-Halvorsen Passagaclia? Mozart G major? And then guess what, I am more
than happy to improvise as an encore! So if that is what it will take for
"my opinion (to cease the fight and stop public destruction of peace and
further taint to our collective profession) then when are you in the Atlanta
area next? Maybe we can do it as a fundraiser for music in schools. Wonder how
much we can raise doing positive performing. Perhaps something good come out of
all of this. But there is one stipulation, the method war become officially
over.
Adam, I didn't suggest that, I was
saying how ridiculous it would be. Besides I play many places and for many
students. I just did a thing today where I was with Yo-Yo Ma's cello teacher
actually So yes, lots of opportunities to make a difference with my performances
and method. I would hardly call it a Method war when you have a corporation
coming after an individual (me). You could call that several things actually -
intimidation, bullying, character assassination, libel and slander. There is no
way that I am not going to defend myself from the bullies and the myopic
thinking. I will protect myself, but I will also protect as many kids as
possible from their "beautiful hearts" behavior too as well as that
method. It clears the room faster than anything, more and more people are
against Suzuki and that is a good thing at this point. Look at their behavior,
from the top of the thread, all the way to the bottom with the obsessive
insults. Once again, I have every right to criticize a method and a corporation
as well as a deceased person's work. I do live in America, where it supposed to
be free. At the same time, I should be free of slander in order to do my work.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
“Music training from preschool to
postsecondary education is common in most nations because involvement in music
is considered a fundamental component of human behavior. Music, like language,
is an accomplishment that distinguishes us as humans.” from “Understanding
Music” - Yudkin, J. on (Wikipedia)
Music students learn from reading post and witnessing the behavior displayed by
teachers in online public groups. Music educator’s groups should stand as a
testament to the art of our craft.
Further public discord damages the message and gives fuel to why administrators
do not deal with temperamental artists. Negative peripheral results then
include: removal of music in curriculum, down-sizing disbanding programs, lost
jobs, lost purpose.
This method war” endless fermata, tri-tone of cacophony” needs resolution, via
complete termination of public argument.
Who has a great new thread idea? I put up a funny brass band multi-tasker
video, hoping to lighten the mood. It does show true cooperation in the arts.
How about innovative positive new postings?
Peace is a behavior. Music should be the vehicle that projects this harmony,
con brio!"
---Adam Crane
Hi Adam thanks for your posts!
I've contemplated your above quote for the past day and have come to see the
wisdom in it.
I'm willing to temper my outrage at Mark and his campaign and participate in
the discussions on this thread in a respectful manner from now on. That would
be better for everyone's blood pressure, and hopefully will further the cause
of having an intelligent discussion.
If Mark and I revert to once again hurling thunderbolts at each other, please
feel free to throw some water on our heads and put us in our place :)
I sincerely promise not to take it personally and won't hold it against you or
anyone else here for stepping into the role of moderator/facilitator if things
get out of hand once again.
What a joke! Him a moderator?
Facilitator - for my message in music pedagogy! OMG, Can these Suzuki people
get any more pathetic!
Simply ignorant of American fiddling. "Fiddle" students don't need a
method book! Historically fiddlers have always learned by ear - no method. My
Method is for classical music students learning to play the violin but in a
much more creative way, inspired by 400 years of musical diversity rather than
a narrow window of baroque music from 250 years ago for year after year. A huge
difference but the same students. Tami the the $8.00 book you just ordered is
Orchestra Book I or II for classical orchestra programs in schools from the
O'Connor Method.
" Adam, I didn't suggest that, I was saying how ridiculous it would be.
Besides I play many places and for many students. I just did a thing today
where I was with Yo-Yo Ma's cello teacher actually So yes, lots of
opportunities to make a difference with my performances and method."
I was being nice here. I can choose who I want to perform with (and with no
conditions attached like Adam wanted, which is of course a promise that might
not be possible depending actions from Suzuki Ass.). Top classical players want
to perform with me. Including Yo-Yo Ma, and Yo-Yo's former cello teacher
illustrated here on my last post yesterday. That was not my initial point. If
you don't think I can "hang" with the great classical virtuosos of
our time, have a look at this video. But my point was, playing skill should not
be a litmus test for talking about pedagogy here. But here it is anyway!.
"Caprice for Three" The three fast bows - Mark O'Connor, Yo-Yo Ma
& Edgar Meyer
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Everyone,
I think if I avoid talking to Mark directly on the thread, that will keep my
arrows safely in their quiver :)
You've probably already discussed this at length, but could I ask what the
musical community can do with this situation besides engaging Mark head on
(which is what I have done up to this point) or completely ignoring him (which
is what most people do after a week or so)?
Since Mark is a well-known concert artist and composer and is highly motivated,
he has a huge advantage -vs- The Suzuki Method on the Marketing/Business side
of things since Dr. Suzuki is no longer alive.
Once again, "Dr." Suzuki
is not real. I have asked Suzuki people who insist on calling him
"Dr." Suzuki solely based on a honorary doctorate degree, to refer to
me as Dr. O'Connor since the honorary doctorate has been bestowed on me! I just
heard from one of my followers this:
"having an honorary doctorate is like having keys to the city. There are
no keys, there is no doctor."
So people are following along and getting the message that a lot of this stuff
about Suzuki was invented and fraudulent. I will be releasing a couple more
blogs soon, and my articles have been picked up by a huge music educational
magazine. People are liking what I am saying, and authoring out there about how
music edu must progress forward in strings, and American music should be
utilized. The old Suzuki - all Baroque model is not going to make it I believe.
Too many students want my Method tunes, to the point were Suzuki camps are
banning them from free sessions. As soon as that totalitarian stuff gets out,
and parents start figuring out the oppressive nature of some of these tactics,
it is the spiral down I believe. By the way, at my string camps, if anybody
wants to play Suzuki tunes or classical pieces in his books in their free time,
it is absolutely fine with me and our teachers. A much more inclusive
environment.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"What I am asking is for
Mathew Weiss to quit writing me and targeting me on line, lying about my music,
ability and method. He has targeted me, singling me out as an individual giving
me verbal attacks and with intimidation for the better part of a year now. I
have not done that to anyone. He seems obsessed with me, while at the same time
he seems to really like what I do, he belittles, insults and lies continually.
I would like for him to please leave me alone. I should not have to leave
Linkedin because of an online bully that is left here to have free reign with
no monitoring from adm. Before he came on, these two threads about me and about
the Method were both considerable and long. So there is interest here in what I
have to say and certainly in my Method. I should not have to leave because of a
bully, targeting individuals. I will be speaking with my attorney about the
bullying, intimidation and libel by him. There could be some serious issues
here.
Once again, it is impossible for me to commit slander and libel to a deceased
person or a corporation. (Suzuki and the SAA)
The things that are said about myself here, are designed to hurt me, my
reputation and my brand - and that potentially means a loss in income. If
Mathew Weiss keeps it up, there could be calculated damages accessed. At the
very least, he will have to retain a lawyer on libel accusation and the
expenses will add up while the lawyers see what kind of damages this has caused
turning away teachers from my products. I have asked him to stop many times,
and there are witnesses to that here. All I can say once again, is this the
"beautiful heart" of a Suzuki teacher that they claim to have? The
"good citizen" they brag about creating? You have to shake your
head."
---MOC
Hi Everyone,
If you carefully read what I say, you will see that I do not directly attack
Mark as a person in the same way that he does to so many other people.
What I do is pointedly dissect the many flaws in his arguments.
One big exception is that I stated that Mark cannot play the Tchaikovsky Violin
Concerto and other classical repertoire.
That was pushing the envelop too far.
What I should have said was:
"There is no evidence that I know of, such as YouTube videos, etc. that
demonstrates that Mark can play standard classical repertoire such as the
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, Sonatas and Concertos by Mozart, Beethoven,
Brahms, and other composers and works considered the bread and butter of
Classical Music."
Since these composers are not part of Mark's books, it's not really necessary
for him to demonstrate any proficiency in the bread and butter of Classical
Music.
Mark is great at what he is expert at, but probably should stick to those
things and realize that everyone has a focus and no one can honestly claim to
be great at everything.
If I wasn't busy writing nine
concertos for orchestra of my own, I might take my advanced violin technique
and work of the Tchaik, but I don't need to! For my own performances, I
exclusively concentrate on my work! 10,000 and more violinists can play the war
horses on stage. There is one person I know of who has written nine concertos
in our era and can perform their own nine concertos with orchestra. So, I will
take that distinction any day. My concertos have received a total of 600
performances with orchestra now. It is a stat that I am thrilled with, but
still want to continued to build on! For every time I would play a war horse
concerto, it is one less time that I get to put one of my own on stage. So I am
excited about putting my new music on stage!
The great violinist Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg who has played side by side with
me on stage 35 different times for my double violin concerto has this to say
about my work.
#musedchat Passion reigns. The
"method wars" must continue. Dalcroze, the stuff beyond eurhythmics,
is rare. His pedagogy for Tonal memory is the worst application of solfege
possible, to my mind. It doesn't account for how children best learn. It is
awfully confusing—unless it is the way you know. But, he was not teaching
children; he was terribly frustrated at how his students couldn't
"audiate" though he didn't know the word at the time. How did
Palestrina learn? via Suzuki method? Some would say yes, in that he learned
from the musician folks around him as he was growing up. That's the heart of
Suzuki's "intention": learn from a great model musician (certainly
NOT SS, though), like a parent. The Suzuki method, to my understanding—and
having read, "Talent and Education" (for God knows what reason), back
in my undergraduate days—is mostly a philosophy which is quite valid. The
method (thoroughly under-researched), and the way Americans have bastardized
it, is inferior in many ways. I'm sickened when I witness it. Why? It just
sounds so stiff and unmusical. Technique trumps musicianship. [I have seen a
dozen or more programs.] Only a few children come away with good musical
skills. Why? These anecdotal successes are based 2 factors: intrinsic
motivation coupled with his/her innate music aptitude. Not the teacher.W ith
those two factors, any method would be sufficient. Unfortunately, that's only
catering to 15-20% of those we teach. Why do so many (90+%) drop out of music
lessons after 5 years? I say, they're being taught inappropriately. The numbers
are not different anywhere when speaking about *instrumental* music ed.
How did Bach learn? From what method? How did Mark O'Connor learn? How did
Edwin Gordon learn? In the latter case, I can give you some half-remembered
version of his personal story. When Gene Krupa's band's bass player went off to
war, Ed got to play bass in the band. He was very good and Krupa amazed him.
So, Ed, being assured he was a good musician by many, got recommended to pursue
being a musician at Eastman. There, he was taught theory, which he didn't
understand; he was taught techniques that didn't make him a better musician;
his bass teacher butchered his self esteem by forcing him to play literature
that made the professor look good; and other atrocities of "music
education" as it was in the 50's—and which still linger on strongly today.
So, in an effort to get at how he best learned music, and not how he was taught,
nor how he was taught to teach, he spent years developing scientific ways to
look at "how we learn when we learn music." 50 years later, his
books, his aptitude measures, his theories, his playing with and working with
children, have all lead to an extraordinary method of music learning. Why few
know about it, or fewer still understand it, is reprehensible to me. So, I'm in
Mark's camp. I'm passionate. I hate this phrase: "Grow where you are
planted." I've been transplanted a bunch of times. Each time to soil that
had too much BS or in a nice mix. Another phrase that rankles me:
"Everybody will find what works best for themselves." Not if they
haven't tried to understand Music Learning Theory from Ed Gordon! How do you
dismiss it without understanding it? Understanding it only helps you understand
where the children are so that you can teach them better. The
"method" is very flexible in many respects. Improvisation and
Creativity are the higher level goals, not names of notes and lines and spaces.
That's like teaching a baby, who can't speak the native language yet, the
alphabet, or what nouns and verbs are. Silliness!
If a child can't sing in tune and move rhythmically and expressively, they are
far less likely to be successful on an instrument. What skills are primary?
So, I'll close. Methods can be shown to be more effective than others for one
thing or another. Purpose is key. Show me the research. Show me the many kids
from the other 80% and how they're doing!
Yes, obviously Eric is in my camp
and I in his. Technique is very small part of music. And the kids don't even
learn what music is about before they quit Suzuki. Eric says: "Why do so
many (90+%) drop out of music lessons after 5 years?" Isn't that the
truth. That is what I find all over the country.
Even on this thread there are people dismissing the talent to compose violin
concertos for orchestra and getting to perform them, in favor of the one
millionth rendition of the Brahms violin concerto etc. It is great, but it does
not mean that much to a 10 year-old American kid. We are losing all of these
potential string students to everything else. Yo-Yo's old teacher here at this
festival confirmed as well. He gave a demonstration of the very same thing in
his experience - the huge percentage quits before they even can play music and
be a musician, even a beginning musician. It is very sad. But... that is why I
created my Method, to rope these kids in so at some point they will be able to
look at the finer points of jazz, or of bluegrass or of Mendelssohn.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Matt, astonishingly, wrote:
"There is no evidence that I know of, such as YouTube videos, etc. that
demonstrates that Mark can play standard classical repertoire such as the Tchaikovsky
Violin Concerto, Sonatas and Concertos by Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, and other
composers and works considered the bread and butter of Classical Music."
Oh yeah? Well Matt, consider the following (yes, purposely ugly) statement:
"There is no evidence that I know of, such as YouTube videos, etc. that
demonstrates that Matt has stopped beating his wife."
As Sagan was fond of saying, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence."
One cannot prove a negative. It's unfair. Your postulating one demonstrates you
are, at best, illogical and at worst, mean-spirited.
Oh, and the childish pseudo-bargain, "Mr. O'Connor, if you stop saying
what I don't want to hear, I'll play with you," indicates you're juvenile,
petty, or mean-spirited.
And attempting to assail Mr. O'Connor's musicianship!?! WOW!! That one marks
you out as either willfully uninformed, spectacularly unmusical, or (and my
money is on this one again) mean-spirited.
So it bears repeating as you seemed to miss it the first time: Matt, just stop.
You're making a fool of yourself.
In hopes the ad hominem attacks vanish but certainly non-deferentially yours,
Ron
PS. In spite of the lack of data, don't fret, I don't believe the wife-beating
thing.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Ron,
Yes I made an error earlier in the thread :)
Bob Dylan is not expected to give treatises on singing opera.
Eddie Van Halen doesn't need to be expert on the Lute.
And Mark doesn't need to be able to play the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto.
It's all good---I freely admit that Mark O'Connor is great at what he does and
not so great at what he does not. Mark himself has admitted that he never
studied the piece and that it would take a couple of months to work it up.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Mark,
When a person's professional integrity is attacked, in a professional setting,
it is, in fact, damaging. You said I lied and was a cult member. You are in no
position to determine whether this has resulted in financial loss for me.
Your posts were targeted at me in a very unprofessional manner, without regard
to what I wrote, points I made acknowledging your opinions as well as regard
for your performance abilities and method books.
I do not take your posts about me on a music educator's forum lightly. Your
writings about me are not "tongue in cheek" as you claim.
You have so many great things to say about musicianship and contributions to
make concerning violin pedagogy.
It is unfortunate that many of the fine points made by all are lost in the 90% garbage
posted in this discussion.
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Speaking of evidence,
many posts by several discuss "research" shows. In the scholarly
field, when research is discussed, citations are needed.
And, youtube videos, like the ones posted here does represent primary sources.
Primary sources and collection of data are important to the researcher.
The lack of videos also begs investigation. The lack of a video does not mean
the video does not exist, it means the search yielded no results. Then, the
defined characteristics of the search become important information. With the
compelling evidence about how much is available in reference to Mark O'Connor's
presence on YouTube, the fact that there is no performance of the Tch. Violin
Concerto by Mark, is worth investigating, if some one was interested in
investigating it. (After all, investigation about pedagogues is what some of
this blog is about.)
And Mark explained he has his time outlined on what he wants/needs to
accomplish and that time does not include learning the Tch. Violin Concerto.
This kind of discipline that Mark is describing is not only important but also
separates the highly successful from the rest of the pack.
Matt was not bringing up an inappropriate question and Mark was appropriate in
explaining the situation. So Ron, your post about this was . . . well,
lacking??. Did you know that one in four women will experience domestic
violence in their lifetimes? (I can provide the citation for anyone who wants
it.)
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
The most important comment to date
is from Eric:
"If a child can't sing in tune and move rhythmically and expressively,
they are far less likely to be successful on an instrument. What skills are
primary? "
These skills, Eric, just as you say : singing in tune, understanding and moving
to pulse, making expressive decisions, and knowing what they hear.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Janet,
Thanks for posting!
I know it takes a lot of courage to take part in these discussions, and most
people stay on the sidelines where it is safe so as to avoid having their
reputations damaged.
I have a day job as an IT professional so, I can afford to take quite a few
lumps without suffering any loss of income. If I were still a full-time
educator, performer, or composer I would probably have treaded a little more
lightly :)
But I am very passionate about music and it's not in my nature to sit idle
while I see a major injustice taking place.
Janet, Since the Tchaikovsky
Violin Concerto seems to be of utter importance to you (not so much to me
although it is fine, but no better than my own concertos), let's see a video of
Shinichi Suzuki playing it? Since that seems to be your litmus test for
authoring a classical string method! And for that matter, since you brought up
your professional reputation, what about you playing the Tchaik so we can have
a look. Certainly if it is played well and you get bookings on it, it has some
value and should be worth documenting and showing. I get bookings on my
concertos - 600 orchestral solo appearances to date, so I have nearly all of my
pieces either recorded on CD or can provide some YouTube. We actually have a
camera shoot of my entire Fiddle Concerto from its 3rd performance (out of 250
now). My assistant is finishing the edit on that and it should soon be up!
Thanks.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Janet, Since the Tchaikovsky
Violin Concerto seems to be of utter importance to you (not so much to me
although it is fine, but no better than my own concertos)..."
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
You know, when I was a teenager, I
was aware of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, because I would hear it sometimes
on the radio and hear people talking about it. Later, while I was a member of
the Seattle Youth Symphony Orchestra under Vilem Sokol, David Nadien came to
town and played it with us. After that, I loved the piece. A few years later, I
studied it and used excerpts for an audition that got me the concertmaster
position in the same orchestra.
It's one thing to hear a piece on the radio or on a CD, or whatever. It's quite
another thing to study a piece---to actually play it, feel it flowing through
you. Then you connect with the composer and experience the music from the
inside out. That is the amazing thing about being a musician. That's why we
love a piece like this so much!
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Mark,
Your response has absolutely nothing to do with my posts. And, what you say
about me is inaccurate.
I believe any expert has the right to determine what is important to them and
what they should be working on.
Here is what I wrote:
"This kind of discipline that Mark is describing is not only important but
also separates the highly successful from the rest of the pack. "
I have never once discussed (or claimed I knew a 'litmus test') necessary for
authoring a classical string method. You wrote about me " Since that seems
to be your litmus test for authoring a classical string method!"
Why would I learn TVC? I prefer opera orchestra reductions to instrumental
ones.
No one doubts your abilities as a performer and composer. I wish you continued
success.
Janet, you wrote this: "With
the compelling evidence about how much is available in reference to Mark
O'Connor's presence on YouTube, the fact that there is no performance of the
Tch. Violin Concerto by Mark, is worth investigating, if some one was interested
in investigating it. (After all, investigation about pedagogues is what some of
this blog is about.)"
So the investigating is the defacto litmus test, otherwise why would anyone
care how the author of a method sounds on the Tchaik concerto? So that is how
it worked! Seems pretty obvious. And also there are others on here that keep
mentioning the Tchaik concerto as some kind of test. And you seem to agree with
those posts. So, what I am asking is for you all to post your concerto
performances here and toss in the Shinichi Suzuki rendition of Tchaik so we can
see how he teaches the concerto... I have already displayed my abilities here
in spades. But here is more. How about one of my caprices! This should silent
the technically minded! Plus I composed it. Two points for creativity. You
won't find any Suzuki students working on this level - certainly. Thanks.
(sorry folks, it's getting late and I can resist certain things no longer)
P.S. My mom did all the artwork. She is a violinist, Suzuki violin teacher, and
took up visual art about ten years ago. Pretty creative person I'd say :)
(sorry folks, it's getting late and I can resist certain things no longer)
P.S. My mom did all the artwork. She is a violinist, Suzuki violin teacher, and
took up visual art about ten years ago. Pretty creative person I'd say :)
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Everyone,
I've got huge concert happening today. The program consists entirely of the
music of living composers, many of whom will be attending and playing. It's a
really big deal and I've put a lot of time into it since many of the composers
are friends of mine and one of the pieces is an aria that I wrote for soprano
and orchestra from my new opera "The Adventures of Don Carlos":
I'm mentioning this to show what this Suzuki Student does in his life, when I
'm not working at my day job to bay the bills., and also to let you know that I
won't be available for the discussion today.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
I think this discussion about the
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto is a good one and actually sheds some light on a
few things, even though it is interesting to note that this piece is not
included in the Suzuki Books and sadly, nothing of Tchaikovsky is, so teachers
such as my mom have to supplement it and other of Tchaikovsky's works when
students reach an appropriate level of playing.
But it does address an idea that could be further explored by asking the
following question:
If the aim of an educational system is to teach students World History and
create a generation of adults that are well-educated human beings with a global
vision, would it make sense to teach them US History only with the assumption
that once they've mastered US History, they can then apply all the skills
they've learned through those classes to their daily lives and the rest can be
figured on their own by going to the library, surfing the net, etc?
Sr.
Director, Communications, Research & Development at Alpha Major
Mark,
I'm glad you explained your thinking. However your responses to my posts still
remain, largely, non sequiturs. And, generally, your non sequiturs start and
end the same way.
Janet, I think you miss the point
of my posts. They are to enlighten everyone here about aspects of my Method,
not just to refer to your question. I may address the post to you, but I
quickly make the message more universal and inclusive of other thoughts here as
well as the initial thing I wanted to say. Thanks.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi everyone,
Yesterday's Octava Chamber Music Extravaganza was a huge success and we had one
of largest most appreciative audiences ever! I'm totally thrilled that we got
such a positive response since the entire program was the music of living
composers, many of whom attended the concert and/or played in it.
I've been thinking about this whole thing and believe that the Music Educators
following this thread have the ability to really influence the outcome of this
senseless war of words between Mark O'Connor and Suzuki---not only here on
LinkedIn, but even out there in the real world.
If we can agree to get along, we can come up with a solution that will support
both Mark's mission which is to bring exposure of American Music to kids and
audiences in general, and also support the continued education of Classical
Violinists and Classical Musicians, whether they play the violin, cello, viola,
oboe, trombone, guitar, or whatever.
The last thing we need in this day and age is to foster a new round of
nationalism and narrow-minded thinking in our next generation of kids---whether
musically or otherwise.
On the other hand, there also is a musical crisis happening world-wide in that
the folk and "classical" music of many cultures (for example India)
faces extinction because the kids would rather listen to pop music rather than
learn the music of their culture, much of which is not written down, but rather
passed from generation to generation orally.
So we have two big problems: how do we create a global cooperative musically,
and yet preserve these wonderful traditions?
I would love to hear everyone contribute to this idea.
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
Fascinating discussion...I have
enjoyed popping in to see what has transpired every now and then. I adore
everyone's passion for caring so much about music education. I have taught
classroom vocal /general music for 32 years. With three years to go( I think)
before I retire from the classroom and focus on studio instruction, I'm feeling
my strongest regarding my commitment to doing my teaching as thoroughly as I
possibly can. Kodaly certified and love the structure it provides for covering
details, challenging the ear and growing musicians who read and discriminate
the calibre and quality of their music. Along with my ability to teach singing
I am so content with my world. These discussion groups are good professional
development for us and a welcome source of commradship in the oftentimes
isolated world of music teaching. Talk on!!
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Laura, exactly! What is always
needed in these professional development discussions is mutual respect and
unyielding professionalism!
Your comment would be a terrific new thread, so it isn't lost within a tainted
topic thread.
Would you consider placing what you wrote as a fresh thread somehow? It would
be great!
"I want children to play
music, have a good heart, and be beautiful people…and there is so much more.
Music is a powerful force for good in the world, and there is no better example
than the music and the philosophy of music from America! It represents
individuality, freedom of expression, creativity, diversity, community – it
represents democracy. " -Mark O'Connor
Former Secretary of State George Shultz recently spoke about music as a way to
bring a diversity in population together.
This is exactly what I have been
saying to beginning music educators in violin. You have had it wrong for the
last 50 years in the Suzuki era! Young children should not be taught with
mimic-rote-repetition-drills-memorization-ear-training. The methodology has to
contain creativity and improvisation! And I use American music in order to best
deliver those results in the modern era! -Mark O'Connor (The O'Connor Method)
Little Miss Mozart - prodigy to retune Britain
Seven-year old British girl Alma Deutscher is taught to improvise. A girl who
wrote an opera at seven could change the way music is taught. Stephen Fry
described her compositions as 'simply mind-blowing.'
"allowing her to learn through improvisation - as Mozart and many
musicians of the 18th century did - rather than studying scales and completing
drills has helped to nurture that ability." - The Sunday Times, London
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
Eric,
I'm responding to your question.( Having trouble finding your comment thread on
here. Sorry.) Of course, I am sure you have a good understanding and knowledge
of the Kodaly concept as a musician and educator in the field. I feel that my
use of the Kodaly 'concept' in my music program has provided the familiarity
and repetition that elementary students need to feel and internalize pitch in a
gradual but consistent way. As you are aware, this is mainly done with the
voice and uses the singing approach to learning. Many people do not learn to
sing properly on pitch or in tune with solfege and with correct breath support
-- nor to really LISTEN.
Kodaly students learn using movement/dance and perform folk songs and interval
patterns in solfege in a developmentally appropriate way. There is a rich and
varied repertoire to use in preparing, introducing, practicing and performing
these learning concepts. Singing games and dances make up much of the standard
practice. Kodaly (and I adapt it -- I'm not a purist) also gives strong
rhythmic sense and leaves no gaps in this area. Curriculum is paced by grade
level. It was adapted from the Hungarian approach to one for American children,
by Lamar Robertson and Ann Eisen.
Kodaly may not be considered as creative as it is instructive. This is a topic
of debate and a criticism by some who favor the Orff approach, which is
described by many as a more organic musical experience and lends itself more to
instrumental learning. I prefer Kodaly, to be sure given the choice -- and will
admit I do not have certification in Orff. I am nationally certified in Kodaly.
I have found that my students who will sometimes struggle in piano learning to
shape a phrase for example and understand the technical skills involved will
catch on quicker when it is related to singing (the breath, legato, staccato
etc.). I love to teach singing and so that is how I approach comprehension of
music reading and pitch training. Hoping this is making sense?
I have an after school chorus program with three different groups,-- training
chorus, main core group and advanced ensembles for the students who take part
in district, regional and all-state choral events. Whenever my choruses get
into intonation problems or have difficulty with technical issues, we go back
into singing intervals by solfege, combined with the vocal skill discussion and
most of these issues are immediately resolved -- along with remembering the lower
breath support is also engaged.
I feel a Kodaly trained student has a good theoretical understanding of music
and its components -- knowing them singularly and also seeing the big picture
when all parts are working together. The music is IN them and they are the
music. :)
wedding
and mariachi violinist, music teacher, songwriter, Spanish/English translation
and interpretation
It's well known that Suzuki did
not include pieces in his Method that were written before 1750 for copyright
purposes, this would exclude the Tschaikovksy works. It is one of the many
criticisms of the Suzuki method that can be made. The Suzuki Method is
restrictive, especially for those who really love Western European art music!
The Suzuki Method only covers music between about 1700 and 1825. What about the
millennium of musical achievement that happened in Western Europe betore that,
and the century and a half of music, afterwards? Where is Palestrina, Henry
Purcell, Gregorian Chant, Bartok, Leonard Bernstein, Beethoven, Corelli,
Monteverdi, etc.
Not to mention the Suzuki Method's complete irrelevance to modern contemporary
music, Where is Duke Ellington, Jimi Hendrix, Vassar Clements, Chet Atkins, the
Beatles, Tito Puente, José Alfredo Jiménez, Carlos Gardel, etc?
The problem with putting too much emphasis on mastering the classical
concertos, is that when one does this, one has no time left over for creating
the pieces that will be the new classics of future eras. That is why I'm not
impressed with the emphasis that some of our discussers have placed on the
ability to play this piece. Who is going to teach our students who have it
within them to create the new classics of a future era?
At least I got to laugh tonight: "The Suzuki teachers, students, and
supporters really are the victims of all of this. Due to Mark's star-power,
people are initially apt to buy all his attacks on a method that really works
great and has had all the kinks worked out of it a long time ago. " Thanks
Matt for the hilarious notion. Yes, y'all that are involved in the dominant
string-teaching program in this country are such downtrodden victims! Too
funny.
... oh and I forgot to mention how
funny "has had all the kinks worked out of it a long time ago." How
about the kink that there's nothing fun or inspiring about the method!?
Benjamin is of course correct. How
many teachers on Linkedin, will ever perform the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto
with a professional symphony orchestra for a living? Allow me to answer that...
zero. Teachers are spending years and years on their students to accomplish
something that they will never accomplish. It is well, rather sad indeed. That
is why so many kids in Suzuki are quitting at age 17, age 14, age 11, age 8. I
have seen it by the thousands. And these kids don't have any musical creativity
to keep it going beyond the distant memory of their exercise etudes that they
want to forget. Nope the kinks were not worked out.
Hans, I know! Suzuki - a huge
corporate power that has an estimated 80% of the private studio teaching market
for kids is somehow a victim of little ol' me? I would say the victims in this
case, are the hundreds of thousands of kids who quit Suzuki and quit violin in
the process. No, I wouldn't say the Suzuki association is a victim here.
I would look however at the writing on the wall. Like this article. It is a
snowball and it is starting to roll straight downhill.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"It's well known that Suzuki
did not include pieces in his Method that were written before 1750 for
copyright purposes, this would exclude the Tschaikovksy works. It is one of the
many criticisms of the Suzuki method that can be made. The Suzuki Method is restrictive,
especially for those who really love Western European art music!
The Suzuki Method only covers music between about 1700 and 1825. What about the
millennium of musical achievement that happened in Western Europe betore that,
and the century and a half of music, afterwards? Where is Palestrina, Henry
Purcell, Gregorian Chant, Bartok, Leonard Bernstein, Beethoven, Corelli,
Monteverdi, etc.
Not to mention the Suzuki Method's complete irrelevance to modern contemporary
music, Where is Duke Ellington, Jimi Hendrix, Vassar Clements, Chet Atkins, the
Beatles, Tito Puente, José Alfredo Jiménez, Carlos Gardel, etc?
The problem with putting too much emphasis on mastering the classical
concertos, is that when one does this, one has no time left over for creating
the pieces that will be the new classics of future eras. That is why I'm not
impressed with the emphasis that some of our discussers have placed on the
ability to play this piece. Who is going to teach our students who have it
within them to create the new classics of a future era? "
---Benjamin Smeall
Hi everyone,
We have argued these and many other points ad nauseum on this thread, on
another LinkedIn thread and elsewhere on the internet.
I think the real problem is that this whole war of words between the Suzuki
Method and the O'Connor Method not only is getting old, but was completely
inappropriate from the beginning.
Not only is it offensive and detrimental to Music Education generally, it
doesn't make much sense since the two methods have separate goals and really
don't need to be contrasted to each other, in the same way that a US History
class and a World History class both teach students history and yet have a
different focus and different goals.
Thanks to everyone, and I look forward to your thoughts on how we can end this
war and come up with a solution that allows both methods to co-exist peacefully
and even complement each other.
Here's my idea Matt. First you
should know that I come from a (sort of) Suzuki background. My aunt is a Suzuki
teacher-trainer, and was the one who taught me. However as I mentioned a time
ago above, she didn't use the Suzuki method because she knew my pre-existing
level of musical talent and education! Sure I played a few Suzuki songs... a
bunch of book 1, a little of book 2, then skipped straight to the Seitz
concertos. I finally had a little fun playing those although they're pretty
darn cheesy.
Anyway my idea is this. The Suzuki method should (and I think this probably
will happen) decline and eventually shrink away to irrelevancy to the modern
classical world. Then the war will be over, and violin-playing kids will, I
hope, be able experience any number of what are more balanced approaches to the
instrument and to music in general.
This is the wrong analogy by
Mathew Weiss. The better one would be "American History" (because my Method
includes literature and styles from Mexico and Canada) and "European
History." There are a couple of obvious things. Everyone agrees that North
America emerged as a great cultural leader in the 20th century, that America in
the 20th century was a great musical leader and innovator, and that music from
America has influenced and inspired people all over the world. Also America is
inclusive of European music history, where the opposite is not true. So those
are several compelling reasons why a methodology and set of principles that are
not born out of the greatest musical system of the last 100 years is
problematic. The strings in America are the last hold out for this change, as
band, choral, percussion, piano and guitar have long ago adopted American music
in its methodology. Strings never made the switch because of the dominance of
Suzuki corporation, the only corporate power that has been governing music
educational direction.
I think Hans is correct here. Just
like Leopold Aure and Leopold Mozart violin methods are no longer used that
much, even though they may be referred to at the University level for study
purposes. They had their time in the sun and they fade away as being practical
because of a changing musical culture. I think we are there. The American music
century has changed the culture. Because of Suzuki's more limited talents (he
himself did not have the chops to play music from the romantic era of violin
playing) he doubled down on the baroque and early classical era, making up his
entire method.
From my research there are a few things propping up Suzuki to have lasted this
long. I think being incorporated and dominating the scene to the point where
there is nearly no other choice for violin lessons in most middle sized and
small cities is a huge part of it. They have stayed dominant because other
choices have been pushed aside and even stomped out through positioning and
intimidation - the same kind of treatment they have shown yours truly in fact.
But I am a little hard to stomp out they are finding. I think that another
reason is that there was a consistent series of false marketing campaigns
concerning Suzuki's credentials (his title, his endorsements, his training, his
mentors, his ability...). Today, things are much more transparent. It is my opinion
that Suzuki in today's environment would not have been able to lie and invent
his biography to beef himself up in order to have the chance to sell his Method
to the West, let alone Japan in fact (he had a lot of competition in Japan with
others doing essentially the same thing as him. Basically, Suzuki met Kendall
and the others didn't!) As for my bio, it is 100% accurate, there is nothing
invented in it!
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Folks,
I'm choosing to ignore the comments of Mark and Hans since it will simply
plunge us back into the same old debates one more time.
Mark has admitted that he has never studied the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto and
also has said that he has no need to study it now because his own violin
concertos are superior and it would not be worth his time to study and/or play
the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto.
I think it is safe to assume that the same is true for the Bruch Violin
Concerto, the Brahms Violin Concerto, the Beethoven Violin Concerto, the Mozart
Violin Concertos, the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto, and so on.
It is clear that Mark O'Connor does not have much interest in these composers
and most likely very little formal training in the genres represented by them.
This is all fine, and it makes perfect sense that the Method that he is
developing would reflect his attitudes and training.
That is why I am saying that the Suzuki Method and other violin methods that
teach Classical Violin really are not in the same category as the Mark O'Connor
Method and therefore there is no need for them to be competing with each other.
So back to our conundrum: how do we as educators (I'm including myself since I
did in fact teach Suzuki Violin when I was in college and in my 20's before
getting an IT job to support my growing family) end this war of words here and
out there in the real world?
Here come the personal insults
again and the mis quotes. First, I never said that I didn't study the
Tchaikovsky Concerto! I studied all of the major concertos, in order to better
compose my own concertos. (Do people actually think you can accomplish things
without any study?). Also you misquoted me, I said that the Tchaik Concerto was
no better than any of mine, not that mine were superior. So that is a major mis
quote and it has no place in this thread. He needs to retract that. Also, he
assumes that I did not study the other major concertos, which is wrong. I said
that it would take my a few months to work Tchaik up, as in to get it under my
fingers for performance. Not that I have not studied the scores of these
concertos! How can I possibly compose nine concertos having studied no
concertos? It is impossible, and Mathew Weiss is impossible.
Mark, I'm voting you president of
string method. In turn, I get voted king of the world for early childhood music
development! hehehhhehhehh No, seriously, we could do some serious damage
together if the aural skills are already in place the 3-4-5-6-7 year olds or
well before the time you start them on strings.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Here come the personal
insults again and the mis quotes. First, I never said that I didn't study the
Tchaikovsky Concerto! I studied all of the major concertos, in order to better
compose my own concertos. (Do people actually think you can accomplish things
without any study?). Also you misquoted me, I said that the Tchaik Concerto was
no better than any of mine, not that mine were superior. So that is a major mis
quote and it has no place in this thread. He needs to retract that. Also, he
assume that I did not study the other concertos, which is wrong. I said that it
would take my a few months to work it up, as in to get it under my fingers for
performance. Not that I have not studied the scores of these concertos! How can
I possibly compose nine concertos having studied no concertos? It is
impossible, and Mathew Weiss is impossible."
OK looks like I misinterpreted a few things :)
I guess the next question would be to ask Mark what he means by
"study". Did he actually learn how to play them and work them up to a
level so that they could be played in a student recital, or used as an audition
piece for a symphony orchestra? That's what I meant by "studying
them".
Or did he simply listen to them and follow along with a score?
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Here come the personal
insults again and the mis quotes. First, I never said that I didn't study the
Tchaikovsky Concerto! I studied all of the major concertos, in order to better
compose my own concertos. (Do people actually think you can accomplish things
without any study?). Also you misquoted me, I said that the Tchaik Concerto was
no better than any of mine, not that mine were superior. So that is a major mis
quote and it has no place in this thread. He needs to retract that. Also, he
assume that I did not study the other concertos, which is wrong. I said that it
would take my a few months to work it up, as in to get it under my fingers for
performance. Not that I have not studied the scores of these concertos! How can
I possibly compose nine concertos having studied no concertos? It is
impossible, and Mathew Weiss is impossible."
---MOC
OK looks like I misinterpreted a few things :)
I guess the next question would be to ask Mark what he means by
"study". Did he actually learn how to play them and work them up to a
level so that they could be played in a student recital, or used as an audition
piece for a symphony orchestra? That's what I meant by "studying
them".
Or did he simply listen to them and follow along with a score?
Eric, actually I think yours is a
very good idea regarding early childhood music education. I am prepared to take
3-4-5 year-olds in the O'Connor Method if creativity was a huge part of their
lessons, but like I have said, it is not necessary for a healthy violin
foundation to have kids start that early unless they absolutely want to do it.
Not their parents, but them. By age six, I do think that parents can persuade
the kids to study music, and the children can adjust to it. But again, to
create really great violin players, it still is not necessary to start kids
until even later - so technically speaking there is nothing lost by skipping
ages 3-5 at whatsover. I myself started at age 11! And my technical level is
considered at the top of the violin scene. Suzuki started at age 18, and yes,
that was much too late for a whole host of reasons, we have paid for that fact.
I will attach a picture here of my string quartet again, they all graduated
Juilliard and Eastman with performance degrees, all have won competitions and
auditions and each of them began their string instrument as age 8 or 9. So
another words, technical training can be be delayed as Eric has said here. That
is why Suzuki Method at 3-4-5-6-7 is just completely unnecessary. It did not
achieve what Suzuki thought it would achieve and did not achieve what Kendall
thought it would either. He sure changed his tune on the very videos posted at
the top of this thread in his later years.
Matt, Not all is created equal nor
deserves an equivalent status in music education. Much is different. Very
little is the same. Suzuki, in my experience, SERIOUSLY underestimates what
children can do. Period. Here's some of my proof that what I do is push kids to
levels that astonish most music teachers (as many of them can't do this
themselves in short amount of time. They need notation to lean on. Or worse,
theory.)
Enjoy. This ain't no SO-MI sequence. Also, no rhythm or tonal exploration. It's
audiation!
Mark, Right on! Intrinsic
motivation is KEY at ages before 6 or 7. It can't come from the parents prior
to that. Tim Duncan didn't play basketball until he was a senior in HS! One of
the best in the NBA. So, starting early on the instrument is OVERrated.
Starting early, however, cannot be UNDERestimated. Children are exposed to
music certainly by the 3rd trimester in utero. The acculturation an imitation
of their environment, coupled with their level of innate music aptitude,
creates a fertile field in which musical plants can grow later, either
technically, or otherwise. Without the early experiences, there is little hope
for many children to catch up to what might have been had they had a rich and
varied music environment around from the time of birth to 3 or 4 years old.
Research supports it. I did my own for my PhD a while back. It's amazing the
effect the VERY early years have on children.
Matt you can ignore my comments
all you want. This "war of words" is largely on the organization that
you have so much misplaced respect for. If it were to not exist, neither would
the conflict. The string-playing world would not suffer one tiny bit for the
lack of it, and another great boon would be that no longer will piano players
have their musical ability ruined for life by one of the worst piano-teaching
methods to ever exist in the history of the instrument.
If you have some substantive evidence (like Mark has for himself and some of
his students, and Eric does) that the Suzuki method is great for preparing kids
for the classical music world please provide it. If not then at some point you
and every other fanatic will have to finally wake up and realize that all those
missed opportunities, kids losing interest, being completely incapable of
creatively exploring their instrument do NOT in fact help the classical music
world as a whole. For every Suzuki wunderkind (and I played with a 13 year old
soloist last year that was very good) there are thousands of other kids who can
barely read music, and hundreds of kids that just quit out of disillusionment.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"If you have some substantive
evidence (like Mark has for himself and some of his students, and Eric does)
that the Suzuki method is great for preparing kids for the classical music
world please provide it."
* Klein
I have already provided a link to my own performances on this thread as an
example of a Suzuki Student who is now a soloist, chamber musician, composer,
concertmaster of numerous orchestras, who can improvise, etc. All these
pre-conceived notions about the Suzuki Method that kids are robots, can't read
music, can't improvise, and so on are exactly that: prejudices based on a
certain overly-aggressive marketing campaign that is dragging up notions from
the 70's that have long since demonstrated to be unfounded.
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Focusing the Passion –
“Performance for Peace”-- Violin Concerto #10, by M.O.
Implementing positive pro-active solutions is the best way to move forward.
Further conflicts are serving to overshadow the great content shared by
everyone, regardless of diametrically opposed opinions and unfortunate
resulting behaviors, challenges to integrity, character and purpose for the
passion.
The goal would be to universally choose to focus the passions of many respected
experts, through forward moving, impactful action. (Too bad it is impossible to
reclaim lost time and energy lost in-fighting and trying to one-up one another.
Mark - You wrote 9 concertos. Truly, this is an admirable feat. You are the
expert on American fiddle music and wish to be heard as a fresh and innovative
voice in the worlds of string education. Performance experience with the many
greats should be understood and levels of your musicianship, no longer
questioned. Add up the years of time and energy spent trying to get your
message out, but facing the walls that you are running into. Many outside of
your control, but many unfortunately totally within your control, that is, if
you choose to focus your passion with socially-welcoming styled-language and
unyielding professionalism. Yes, you have a right to be frustrated, but this is
never an excuse for full blown personal attacks on others opinions, expertise
or good hearts.
Matt – The controversy has triggered a creative project. Certainly, there is a
lot more imaginative compositions brewing. Placing energy into new compositions
would be better than stewing over past conflicts, and hope you won’t feel the
need to defend your mom’s legacy, since it speaks for itself. Let’s hope you
are not placed on the defensive ever again and if you need to have one on one
discussions with Mark, then privately is best.
Mark – If you were to add up all of the hours spent fighting the good fight,
and still fighting, and had placed this time into composing, you probably would
be close to complete, if not already recorded performing your 10th concerto. As
the American Music Specialist, are you familiar with the ballad, “Let There Be
Peace On Earth”? Here is how the song came about:
“One summer evening in 1955, a group of 180 teenagers of all races and
religions, meeting at a workshop high in the California mountains locked arms,
formed a circle and sang a song of peace. They felt that singing the song, with
its simple basic sentiment – 'Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with
me,' helped to create a climate for world peace and understanding. More here:http://www.jan-leemusic.com/Site/History.html
This song has been done and re-done and always well received. Many years ago,
an arrangement/medley of this song along with Give Peace a chance, and others
brought standing ovations, collective singing, tears and fundraising/awareness
to a local impoverished community center.
The music was arranged to fit the limited experience of the players, but got
the message across.
Mark, would you consider placing your time into creating the next wonderful
concerto?
I just found an old hard drive that has a skeleton version of the medley
mentioned above. One can only imagine what you may be able to do to enhance
‘Let there be Peace on Earth’ and turn it into an Americana Fiddle Concerto
Great! -- O’Conner-ized. :)
Earlier your comments cast dispersions on my expertise and/or ability to be
taken serious as a credible musician, moderator and more. No need to spend time
dispelling false assumptions. I know what I have done and do on a daily basis.
{CONTINUED)
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
The below post was placed by
Charles Avsharian under the same thread, horribly worded, placing MO on the defensive
post, in the Chamber Music Group. (Geez ,Chamber music!)
charles avsharian • It's heartbreaking to see and hear musicians openly be
critical of each other. As CEO of Shar, I have each musician, young and old, in
mind.....to provide them with what they want and need. Independent
thinking....the Art of exercising freedom of style in any personal way- that's
what we do in America.
I would hope that each person water his/her own garden ....live and let live
without unnecessary and often hurting commentary. [27 days ago]
Here is a suggestion, since his words are sincere and his company is the
exclusive distributor/publisher of the MO Method, and to include a quote from
Shar Product’s site:
“SHAR is also one of the largest suppliers of Suzuki Method™ materials in the
country.”
Perhaps, it would be good for freeing up your creative time to ask your Shar
representatives to work on the frustrations with bumped rates or any other
business practices that are distracting you from your next master opus.
Allow me to close with some of the lyrics form Let There Be Peace on Earth”
…Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me!
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
Here's a shot in the dark on your
debate of violin teaching.....I oftentimes wonder which came first? The chicken
or the egg ? When it comes to my own earliest remembered musical experiences
and where I ended up today as a musician.
Having been introduced to the piano by my woodwind playing father around the
age of 3 and taught to play the classic "oom-pah" style technic of L.H.
bass line w/ R.H. chording while he played melodies in the treble area -- often
doubling octaves or with simple added harmonies of thirds and sixths with
leading tones -- we played together tunes he taught me of the early 1900's such
as Daisy, Sidewalks of New York, I'm Looking Over a 4-Leaf Clover, Charleston,
Five Foot Two, Barney Googles(??) etc, and polkas, waltzes -- all similar
dancehall type tunes --and then on to other stuff like bossa novas, easier
standard jazz etc. We usually played in the key of F in the early days of this
routine we had. I took to it like a duck to water. We entertained at family
gatherings. I believe through this experience and living with the piano on a
nearly daily basis my sense of pitch which was labeled by some as "perfect".
To me, hearing this way was how I assumed everyone heard.I could name pitches
and chords I heard.
In second grade, I was granted the privilege of taking piano lessons. I HATED
having to READ 'Mary Had a Little Lamb"!!
Dad was a weekend musician playing clubs with a pianist and or guitarist and
drummer. Musicians jammed in our home a few times a month, horn players mostly.
As I got older, I'd have to be called in to add to it.
All this just to say,I have never played the violin but if your string students
are too young to start such a fine and complicated instrument, why not suggest
some fun at the piano to develop their ear and understanding of pitch and
harmony?
That bass line training Dad gave me was the key 'trail' I used to find my way
through any piece of music by ear after hearing it by age 8 or so and I was
very good at reproducing music on the piano that I heard in most any vein, easy
listening orchestral, pop, rock, jazz(not so much--too abstract for me then).
Now, this debate seems at least in part to be about teaching 'by rote'. I
believe that rote teaching is especially useful for children Pre-K through
grade 2 children. But they can also learn to recognize the symbols for the
sounds and experiences that they've had along the way. If introduced in a
logical order and not overloaded with information, ( I see no need to push
average learners) it will satisfy them and keep them in training.
In my experience, the talented ones need to be challenged both with harder
music and with reading from the very beginning. The balance is very important
for these students or their ear gets way ahead of their reading and this can
cause problems to develop.
I know as I always favored playing by ear, easier -- less disciplined than the
reading. Struggled with this well into college. Sorry to get so personal here,
but I love the opportunity to think on these things and listen to all the
experience and knowledge here. Life long learning!! It's great stuff!!
I appreciate Adam's post
sincerely. And what he describes about his music and also Laura describing her
own musical learning - reminds me a lot of the O'Connor Method. I just want to
clear up a mistake and misquote of Adam's. Charles' quote from Shar Music that
was re printed by Adam is not directed at myself, it was directed at the
originator of the thread and the other Suzuki attack dogs that came after me on
the threads here. I want to make that very clear.
As far as composing. I am very prolific and I have been working on music for
the Method this whole last year. For me, the music of the O'Connor Method is
that music that can bring people together and already has. I released my
orchestra book II this year and that is 50 minutes of orchestral string pieces
I wrote and arranged. I am working on violin duos right now for the Method (I
am debuting a few of them this week at the O'Connor Method Camp Charleston).
Here is a picture of a scene from that very camp just a few hours ago (Today
(Mon) was the first day). Now, that scene there is a feeling that Adam wishes
for. Look at that picture, that community. I know all about building
communities through music. I have been doing it for years. We need
participants... we don't need the ones who are not cooperating and insulting,
but we need people that will help me. I can't do it alone! Look at that
picture. Something like that could take place in string playing everywhere one
day - and my Method is the catalyst that could do it. I consider the O'Connor
Method as in fact, my 10th concerto, perhaps my final symphony! Let's hope I
can keeping adding repertoire to the advanced books! I suppose the more, the
better, so in that spirit of Adam's yes. We Shall Overcome is in my Book III. I
know the power of American music certainly.
* day of the O'Connor Method Camp in Charleston, SC - Jam Session with faculty
and kids (7/29/13)
wedding
and mariachi violinist, music teacher, songwriter, Spanish/English translation
and interpretation
Let's not overestimate the
"star power" of Mr. O'Connor's musical achievements. The Suzuki
establishment has become monolithic and oppressive. Mr. Connor is like the
"David" to the Suzuki establishment's "Goliath". I commend
him for his courage in speaking out. Why should he invest his personal life in
such a struggle, when he clearly has earned the financial independence of a
"star"?
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
Without preaching, I appreciate
everyone's passion for caring so much about music education. The discussion is
good professional development & a welcome source of comradship in the
oftentimes isolated world of music teaching! Let's continue on with a genuine
respect for our differences of opinion as well as our shared philosophies of
teaching and learning. I'm sure we all agree that our ethical commitments
matter. Written in the spirit of musical purpose -- thanks to all who have
contributed here!
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Laura and Adam,
Thank you for your wonderful and detailed comments and many thanks to Caroline
for hanging in there and putting up with us until we got to this new direction
in the conversation :)
It's all about love for music---that's why we are all so passionate about these
arguments. So let's figure out how we can co-exist and do what's best for the
kids, the music, and the future of our world!
Matt, I see it all the time. I'm
not from the 70's. And a link of a single person (you) doing performances is
not evidence of large amounts of Suzuki students being prepared for the
classical music world. I already mentioned my symphony featured a young soloist
who was quite amazing (although I don't believe for a second he could
improvise). I just think that's a rare phenomenon, and you probably are too.
(Not rare in the inability to realize that the Suzuki method is extremely
flawed however).
Yes I'm passionate about music. This is why I would like kids to be inspired by
it, not feel like it's drudgery.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Hans,
A bit of a diversion, but I am the admin of a Facebook Group of almost 500 21st
Century Composers and would love to have you as a member :) No arguing going on
there---just composers of all genres share each other's music and
supporting/encouraging each other.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Matt, I see it all the time.
I'm not from the 70's. And a link of a single person (you) doing performances
is not evidence of large amounts of Suzuki students being prepared for the
classical music world. I already mentioned my symphony featured a young soloist
who was quite amazing (although I don't believe for a second he could
improvise). I just think that's a rare phenomenon, and you probably are too.
(Not rare in the inability to realize that the Suzuki method is extremely
flawed however)."
---Hans Klein
Hi Hans,
The Suzuki Method is so wide-spread that it's inevitable that there will be
teachers out there who use the Suzuki books and yet just aren't very good
teachers. They are either brand-new teachers or not very good musicians
themselves and therefore don't have a lot to offer.
In my opinion, a good to excellent violin teacher who uses the Suzuki Method as
their foundation must also supplement it with extra repertoire, scale books,
chamber music, exposure to improvising, and so on, once the student has
achieved a certain level of proficiency (this usually occurs somewhere around
Suzuki Book IV).
I also believe that children should be encouraged to play in 3rd position much
earlier than recommended in the Suzuki Books. Many teachers introduce the
Twinkle variations transposed to the key of D and starting in 3rd position
somewhere during Suzuki Book II or III to correct this.
So the Suzuki Method Books as currently published do have some flaws, but these
can easily be corrected by an experienced teacher with adjustments similar to
those mentioned above.
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
Music, like nature's beautiful
scenery can be truly inspirational. Music for music's sake is all that and it
does not need to be 'sold' to anyone who can appreciate the beauty and mystery
of it. I do not think watering it down or trivializing it for children is
necessary. The real appreciation of music comes for comprehending it,
deciphering the theory and language of it and the connections it has to all
things. Devaluing music for it's complexity and the hard work it takes to truly
understand it and execute it in performance in the presence of and in deference
of children does little justice to either music's status in life or children's
sense of intelligence. Children are open to learn and in many ways, much
smarter and sensitive than many adults who are already 'tainted' by their
experiences and their misunderstood conceptions of interpreting an 'abstract'
art form -- actually music is not all that abstract to those who have a
numerical understanding of its form and patterns. There is a great deal of science
to engage those who think this way.The true creativity aspect of music I
believe is when technique and knowledge give way to the spiritual and there is
always an element one does not completely grasp and perhaps will not, as this
is not in our plane of understanding.
I have but one comment to make.
It's time to bury the hatchet. There are many roads--and interesting
detours--that lead to virtuosity and outstanding musicianship. No one holds a
monopoly on "the way."
Matt said. "I also believe
that children should be encouraged to play in 3rd position much earlier than
recommended in the Suzuki Books. Many teachers introduce the Twinkle variations
transposed to the key of D and starting in 3rd position somewhere during Suzuki
Book II or III to correct this. "
I wholeheartedly agree. I encourage students to play around with harmonics and
shifting earlier than most of the books I use have them do it.
"I have but one comment to
make. It's time to bury the hatchet. There are many roads--and interesting
detours--that lead to virtuosity and outstanding musicianship. No one holds a
monopoly on 'the way.'"
I've got a hatchet. I'm not burying it. "The way" is all about how to
help people understand music, that is, to comprehend and make sense out of what
one "hears" when they listen to music. Am I not right? Is this not
the foundation of music understanding? If I were to start speaking in an
unfamiliar language, you would not understand it. You could listen to bits of
it and mimic back what you hear. That is, you could imitate the sounds, but you
would not understand its meaning. In the same way, you cannot understand music
without also comprehending its tonal and rhythm, timbal and expressive, etc.,
elements. So, let's keep looking at what works best to lead students toward a
better way to "understand" or "comprehend" music. Gordon
coined a term 40+ years ago to describe this psychological phenomenon when it
came to musical understanding. The term is AUDIATION. It's what we all teach
and strive for whether we understand the concept or not. A child does not
understand nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, pronouns, prepositions, etc., yet
speak his native language very well by 3 or 4 years old. He thinks in his
language quite well. He does so without knowing all the "theory"
behind it. Children can improvise in music, and so do it without thinking the
chord changes measure by measure. This paralyzes me if I have to do the same.
We handcuff kids with different methods that are illogical. They are mere
techniques devoid of any logic that they need to draw themselves closer to
"understanding" or "audiating" music. Playing music without
audiation is akin to speaking without thinking. I hear it often daily. I ask
that we start to explore more of the solid research out there, and to do your
own, as to what truly works better with most every child (and adult) on how to
improve audiational musical skills. Why do we have so many "fine"
musicians who cannot improvise. I'll tell you that I believe that they are
stuck to the page. They memorize. They have great technique. But, they have
severe restrictions on how they audiate. Look it up, or ask me more about it.
It is THE KEY to the future of music education and it should not, cannot, be
ignored. Not all methods are equal just because some people like them or are
comfortable with them. This is nonsense. No scientist dismissed Einstein out of
hand without being close minded. No music educator can dismiss Music Learning
Theory without taking a serious look at what it offers. Let's move out of the
dark ages of music education and start really going beyond the "feel
good" philosophies that we indulge ourselves in. [Ranting, I know, but
please listen for the substance in it. It is crucial if we are to revolutionize
what is possible for our children that we teach.] Please see the links I posted
above to see the "proof in the pudding."
Looking forward to more discussion. Nice, long, and healthy thread we have
here. Cheers. - Eric
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Great post, Eric! It would be
fantastic to start a brand new thread with a fresh and positive title.
Would you consider getting the ball rolling anew? Thanks!
Matt, I just noticed your comment
about composition. I do some songwriting, but by saying "my symphony"
I meant the symphony I play with; we feature one young soloist every year that
we have a contest to select. I'd love to compose a symphony sometime, but I
have neither the time nor more importantly the confidence and most importantly
probably not the skill. To my ear, the stuff I write sounds too much like my
improvisation... either like bad pseudo-baroque music with more dissonance, or
something halfway between blues and jazz!
I think Eric has a handle on the
early music education, obviously sans violin. I particularly like this video of
the kids with percussion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEzfv_Lqyw
For me, that is much better than beginning a child with an all-technical
manual. I think that I am going to leap off this thread since it is so
derogatory in its opening statement, like Adam has mentioned, plus the author
of the derogatory language has not bothered to make a single entry since she
started either one of her "discussions." Actually, I know who she is
- she taught a family member of mine... and that family member had to
discontinue to find another teacher. So maybe there is a better start that I
could do with a discussion thread. But I think that I have answered the John
Kendall questions, and have stated that I agree with Kendall's position on
Suzuki on the posted videos from late in his life. I agree with the older
Kendall, and not with the younger Kendall as his position on Suzuki clearly
evolved as I have pointed out. I am actually using one of these very videos
posted at the top here, on my own channel to bolster my opinions of my current
pedagogy.
So even for that purpose, the discussion thread had lots of value for me. But
more importantly, I have met a lot of great folks on this thread, some I
believe I will be life-long associates with. Please join my group on Linkedin,
and let's continue the discussion with more positive discussion topics than a
Suzuki teacher with an axe to grind, once again calling me names for writing a
blog article on Kendall and Suzuki's business relationship, which I have every
right to do. I think for whatever reason, the personification of Suzuki
teacher's anger towards me on a personal basis is unique. I have been just as
critical of Hal Leonard Essential Elements and music conservatories in my
articles, and I have heard no anger from any of those folks towards me
personally. Very interesting indeed and it speaks to what John Kendall referred
to in the posted video as "clannish" behavior. It seems to be what
turned him off at some point in the end, and I will have to say I agree. John
Kendall asked to see my first two books of my Method 5 years ago, and he gave
me a thumbs up on them stating that he was impressed. So I have some history
with him in that way, and it more or less comes full circle. I do have another
blog article coming on the research we have done on the Pablo Casals component
to all of this and how effectively he was used as an endorsement for Suzuki. Several
researches have supplied information to that end from around the world. This is
all a part of our history in violin pedagogy and should be of interest to many.
Thanks and look forward to discussing more teaching and methodology! MOC
I began a new discussion thread.
It addresses the great question of our day in violin. Please come over and add
your comments and answers!
THE FALLEN CLASSICAL VIOLINIST In the last 50 years, the role of the classical
violinist has dramatically declined when compared to the trajectory of every
other instrumentalist in classical music.
The reduced role of the classical violinist in the popular culture, goes
without saying unfortunately. But within classical music too? The art of
playing the violin as a great human achievement has not only suffered
dramatically in the last couple of generations, but the expectations of those
classical string players by their own audiences, has also diminished. A matter
of fact I can’t think of another achievement in the arts, or practically any
other great human endeavor that has suffered such decline in the last 50 years.
And just for my birthday!! - Some
of these two forum threads including the opening salvo by Freeman who began
this thing, made it into my new Blog, out today! I thought why not, let's let
several thousand people read some of this stuff. I include most all of my posts
(all unedited) as I like what I wrote here especially. Many of you did not make
it into my blog of course, while still others perhaps just one entry, but all
in all - that may be OK! I just use first names only except for Freeman, giving
her top billing. Why not eh! Enjoy!
Hey friends! I think Caroline's
timing is old news. Can we all agree to say little more and collectively say
the same thing as in:"
Adam, sure. I posted the conclusion of the "resume" as a blog because
I thought it was good to share what teachers were saying to each other, a
frankly I thought I came off exactly how I want to be viewed, someone that has
strong convictions, proud of his work in the field and a staunch supporter for
change against the status quo. I was able to finish my latest Blog about how
Suzuki fraudulently used Casals as an endorsement, but that really concludes my
Suzuki Blogs actually. I am turning to write a series of articles on music
education in a major music educator's publication. The editor liked my blogs.
The Charleston O'Connor Method Camp was a big deal... Mayor proclamation, and a
beautiful film of us playing We Shall Overcome at the old Cigar Factory... The
site where in 1945, the all female factory work force went on strike for 5
months singing that song, and launching the Civil Rights movement. The Youtube
clip will be up tomorrow. The piece is in Book III. And something I didn't let
on as I was keeping it a secret as long as possible but word is getting out
from the last camp, but I am doing an edition of some Bach solo violin sonatas
with new bowings and fingerings to be included in Book IV and going forward. My
plan all along was to skip the 2nd tier of the European classical literature
for the beginning books as the American music was superior to it for the
beginning and intermediate stages because of the strong song forms, robust
phrasing, enduring rhythms and melodies, (even lyrics) harmonic accessibility
for creativity to take a hold and the amazing stylistic and cultural diversity
- then wait to introduce some solo Bach when it gets great, as in the more
advanced works. Equal to a We Shall Overcome Spiritual for a book 3 level or
Deep River, Amazing Grace, the blues, hoedown, ragtime, jazz etc! Hope you are
having a nice summer. Take care...
The series of articles that
exposed Suzuki for who and what he is, has come to its natural conclusion I
believe. There is really no more for me to write on the subject than I already
have. My blog articles have included:
*Suzuki not supporting creativity/American music.
*Suzuki people discrediting my work
*How the classical violin has suffered in last 50 yrs
*Made up relationship with Einstein, invented "Dr." title in
education circles
*Dr. Suzuki was/is a cult, WWII era participation
*How John Kendall "evangelized" for profit, overlooked Suzuki's
training in Berlin, *Suzuki failed entrance exam at Berlin Conservatory
*Teacher's discussions
*Confessions of a former Suzuki Teacher
*Invented endorsements such as from Pablo Casals
So essentially it is done. However I may want to do an article on this new term
that is floating around with the fiddle crowd called "Fiddlebots" as
associated with Suzuki students who learn fiddling from their Suzuki teachers.
All rote-memorized-mimic fiddling as opposed to the creative old-time,
bluegrass, swing, Texas styles that I grew up playing. What a shame... these
players could not get a job even in a country band even though they have
adequate technique. You have to be creative, standing next to an electric guitar
player or pianist who can really improv and solo etc etc... That might be
another article I will have to do.
So, that is done... and it is there for educational purposes if anybody is
interested going forward. I do want to thank the several researches from around
the world, who were inspired to join in on months of research and following the
trail of Suzuki. Hundreds of exchanges if not thousands over the last year and
some. It has interested a lot of people who had suspected stuff, but the
on-line "war" from Suzuki teachers really caused some serious alarm
bells with many folks who knew that there was a cover up for them to come out
at me so angrily just because I don't like Suzuki. It was overreaction from
that crowed that came off as suspicious and lots of people saw it. If you feel
you have something that is great and it is already famous and established,
there is no need to attack the little guy that is making their way up the
ladder. Thanks all...
August 1st, 2013, Charleston Post
and Courier; "Student orchestra plays 'We Shall Overcome' at Cigar
Factory"
"On Thursday, students from the O'Connor Method Camp honored the strike of
Charleston tobacco workers 70 years ago. With bows raised, a group of about 50
from the camp played an orchestral version of "We Shall Overcome" at
the old East Bay Street Cigar Factory."
Suzuki never learned to play the
violin the Suzuki way... neither did Heifitz, or any other great violist from
the past. Suzuki is only a way NOT the ONLY way to learn to play the violin.
Mickey, you are correct. Suzuki
learned to play the violin at age 18 - not 3 nor 6 years old. He was eighteen.
What worked for him (or did not work for him because he both failed his
entrance exam at the Berlin Conservatory at age 25 and failed to become a
professional musician) was something he wanted 3 year-olds to do! A completely
different kind and age of student from what he imposed on a million 3 - 6
year-old children. All of this without any research or personal experience into
what makes great musical artistry. He just invented this
"rote-mimic-drill-repeat-memorize-ear-training" concept and how that
is supposed to give you a beautiful heart, and sold the heck out of it to Americans
like a used car salesman. It didn't work. We have the least amount of creative
classical violinists in the the history of violin. I am on the board of the
artist Kennedy Center and we try to think of famous classical violinists for
the Kennedy Center Honor these days... It is getting very difficult to come up
with anyone who is making a real difference out there on classical violin.
Hardly any real contributions during the last 50 years which is the Suzuki era.
By contrast, before I did any mentoring, I was an expert with my materials.
Here is my lecture at UCLA.
Mark O'Connor
A Lecture on American Classical Music
From Schoenberg Hall at UCLA (Filmed in 2009)
Mark O'Connor, author of the O'Connor Method and a leader in The New School Of
American String Playing gives a lecture-music demonstration at UCLA.
I would like to be
"gone" too, but someone won't turn this thread off and shut it down..
as a linkedin member, I don't want to have a question or comment for me left
hanging here. Thanks. Let's try it again!
One anecdote on #Suzuki piano,
which is, BTW, not a bad metaphor for similar. . .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT0BpHdxjmE
It's from an accomplished musician, friend, and teacher. Biased? Probably.
Truthful? Undeniably so. #expectingtheworse #musedchat #musiced Trying again.
Eric, Oh man. It was as if I paid
this lady off to say that! But she is saying it on her own. It is truly one of
the worst music methods every devised. I have run into thousands of musical
interested kids who quit Suzuki and their instrument for good. Look at this
eerie video of the man. It just seems so pathetic. And frankly scary.
Just an off the cuff moment with a
good friend. Why I was recording may have been a result of the conversation on
this thread. Almost certainly so. Bring on the nay sayers. Happy to hear from
everyone. Except Mark. He's too tough. :-)
On the other hand, I like Suzuki's
vision. The execution, though, is horrific. No improvisation, no creativity, no
musicality emphasized. But, his idea is right.
I posit this : 50 years of music education research lead one man to say:
"A language is no further from extinction than one generation of adults
not acculturating their children in that language." Think of what that
means when superimposed onto music "languaging" for children between
birth (and 3 months prior to birth) and 3 years old.
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Here is an even more inclusive
list of Peace in all languages. Let music radiate and amplify this message,
dynamically for all. I hope everyone is well, and in our collective daily
lives, we are expanding our knowledge, sharing our love for music and using our
gifts for peace and harmony.
Adam, I think that if we had
better music education as well as more creative string players, there perhaps
could have been more peace in a lot of places. The idea of musicians playing
together in harmony and sympathetic rhythm is strong. My Method deals with
American music, harmony, rhythm, chords, improvisation, counterpoint...I think
that makes a better and more peaceful place for young people - playing in
harmony and grooving together.
Juzzy I tend to agree with you. I
find this method highly inadequate for piano students. the students I have
taught that originally learned Suzuki can't seem to read music to save their
life. That's a great disadvantage when trying to become independent musicians.
I put a lot of energy into teaching my students to read music so they can be
independent. They can find a song, sit down and play it without an instructor.
I also incorporate ear training so they can play by ear as well. I find that
while no single methodology fits everyone, a well rounded approach is best. Not
any one extreme. My philosophy, encourage their strengths and work to
strengthen their weaknesses. And for each student that is different.
Sarah, I totally agree. That is
why my string method has students learning both by ear and reading music from
the beginning (depends on the age, but definitely by the time they are reading
words). The Suzuki Method doubled down on the all-technical training and in
doing so, rubbed the creativity right out of the Suzuki music students. Very
few of them, if any of them really, have gone on to contribute to the
literature as the violinists did in days past. Are you a piano teacher only, or
strings too?
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi folks,
Here we go again...the Suzuki Method is so widespread and taught by so many
teachers of varying abilities that there will always be a certain percentage of
people who are not happy with what they were taught. In that case, blame the
teacher and/or that particular student's situation, not the Suzuki Method
itself.
If a particular preacher and/or branch of Christianity goes off the deep end,
does that mean that the Bible should be thrown out as a spiritual text?
No, these are trends that have
been happening for a long time. There is teacher training in Suzuki that is
required in the majority of cases. I believe Mathew is a surrogate and cultist
for the the "Dr. Suzuki" Method and his family members have been from
the beginning it sounds like. It is better to have some objectivity regarding
that Method rather than Ra Ra Cultism. I have written an in depth article on
the quasi-religious Suzuki cultism born out of the 1960s and its counter
culture grab of some American teachers on a journey of some kind. It just would
not have taken a hold today. Time to move on from it.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"No, these are trends that
have been happening for a long time. There is teacher training in Suzuki that
is required in the majority of cases. I believe Mathew is a surrogate and
cultist for the the "Dr. Suzuki" Method and his family members have
been from the beginning it sounds like. It is better to have some objectivity
regarding that Method rather than Ra Ra Cultism. I have written an in depth
article on the quasi-religious Suzuki cultism born out of the 1960s and its
counter culture grab of some American teachers on a journey of some kind. It
just would not have taken a hold today. Time to move on from it."
Hi Everyone,
Clearly we are getting nowhere with Mark. At best, he will cool it for a week
or two and then starts in once again with a new round of ridiculously
inflammatory stuff like the above.
I think it's time to take a new approach and start letting our local music
stores and educators know what's up and ask them if they really want to be
associated with someone or some corporation that insists on doing business in
this way.
How is the "we" in
"we are getting nowhere?" I have asked Mathew to quit stalking me on
the internet. Every time I post something it seems, he is right there like a
gnat. I have asked him repeatedly to quit bullying me, intimidating me and
hurting me. I am selling my educational materials to teachers, and what is he
doing - preventing me from doing that? It is disgusting behavior. It should not
be tolerated. I wrote an article about the quasi-religious cult of
"Dr." Suzuki and I reference John Kendall's book that talks about the
Suzuki cult as "dangerous." from 1966. So, this is fair. If I did not
have documented accounts of the Suzuki Cult, then I would not have written the article.
Here is part II of the article. Very upsetting stuff if you ask me. That is why
I wrote it. If it was a non issue, I would not have written the article.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"How is the "we" in
"we are getting nowhere?" I have asked Mathew to quit stalking me on
the internet. Every time I post something it seems, he is right there like a
gnat. I have asked him repeatedly to quit bullying me, intimidating me and
hurting me. I am selling my educational materials to teachers, and what is he
doing - preventing me from doing that? It is disgusting behavior. It should not
be tolerated. I wrote an article about the quasi-religious cult of
"Dr." Suzuki and I reference John Kendall's book that talks about the
Suzuki cult as "dangerous." from 1966. So, this is fair. If I did not
have documented accounts of the Suzuki Cult, then I would not have written the
article.
Here is part II of the article. Very upsetting stuff if you ask me. That is why
I wrote it. If it was a non issue, I would not have written the article."
---Mark O'Connor
There is certainly nothing wrong with someone wanting promote their educational
materials.
What is wrong is the great extremes Mr. O'Connor continues to go to in his
negative marketing campaign -vs- Dr. Suzuki and the Suzuki Method, especially
since Dr. Suzuki has now passed on.
It is one thing to compare your product to another similar one, but it is quite
another to offend and insult generations of music students and teachers for the
sake of gaining a bigger slice of the market share.
I am just repeating what many,
many teachers are coming to terms with regarding Suzuki. Like Amy who came to
our teacher training after being a long-time Suzuki teacher:
"I saw so many wonderful things at camp last week....you've got it right.
Pam and everyone involved did a beyond exceptional job. I've been making a list
of the awesomness that was O'Connor camp. (Intrinsic motivation, scaffolding,
the uniqueness and individuality so obvious in each student and teacher there,
collaboration). We were listening to rubber dolly on the drive home, and I
noticed very clearly how you've built into the tune a lesson in improvising,
and technique...because there is the theme...then part of the theme
changes....then it changes in the same place, but in a different way...and it
keeps doing that, so by the time you've finished playing, you've acquired all
these different ways you can vary a tune, and where to do it. It's remarkable.
Seeing how everything progresses into book 3 just amazing.
I love that you consider the importance of harmony. I'm so sick of Suzuki. I
quit the books cold turkey earlier this year. A few parents keep asking for
suzuki, but teaching Suzuki is like pulling teeth. After two years, kids have
trouble playing low 2. Nobody remembers the sequence of the twinkle variations.
Everyone needs to supplement Suzuki because the books don't teach what needs to
be acquired, despite what they say. I needed to use umpteen tricks like
practice charts and gummy bear bribes to get kids to play, because kids aren't
motivated to play music they can't sing and that isn't relevant to them. It's
called the mother tongue method but it's a flawed language learning model
because it leaves out the fact that language is creative, in the sense that
every utterance is unique, and it doesn't teach sequential patterns."
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"I am just repeating what
many, many teachers are coming to terms with regarding Suzuki. Like Amy who
came to our teacher training after being a long-time Suzuki teacher:
"I saw so many wonderful things at camp last week....you've got it right.
Pam and everyone involved did a beyond exceptional job. I've been making a list
of the awesomness that was O'Connor camp. (Intrinsic motivation, scaffolding,
the uniqueness and individuality so obvious in each student and teacher there,
collaboration). We were listening to rubber dolly on the drive home, and I
noticed very clearly how you've built into the tune a lesson in improvising,
and technique...because there is the theme...then part of the theme
changes....then it changes in the same place, but in a different way...and it
keeps doing that, so by the time you've finished playing, you've acquired all
these different ways you can vary a tune, and where to do it. It's remarkable. Seeing
how everything progresses into book 3 just amazing.
I love that you consider the importance of harmony. I'm so sick of Suzuki. I
quit the books cold turkey earlier this year. A few parents keep asking for
suzuki, but teaching Suzuki is like pulling teeth. After two years, kids have
trouble playing low 2. Nobody remembers the sequence of the twinkle variations.
Everyone needs to supplement Suzuki because the books don't teach what needs to
be acquired, despite what they say. I needed to use umpteen tricks like
practice charts and gummy bear bribes to get kids to play, because kids aren't
motivated to play music they can't sing and that isn't relevant to them. It's
called the mother tongue method but it's a flawed language learning model
because it leaves out the fact that language is creative, in the sense that
every utterance is unique, and it doesn't teach sequential patterns."
---Mark O'Connor
The great thing about all of this is that Mark is raising the awareness about
the value of improvising for string players. For some reason, this did not
catch on as well as it has with wind players. So that is all good, and it's
about time that string players in general are now learning how to loosen up and
play notes that are beyond what they see on the page and/or hear on a CD or the
radio.
What is not so great is all this other negative stuff that he continues to
magnify and apparently is indoctrinating the members of his workshops with.
It makes no sense to continue to attack the Suzuki Method because it does not
teach kids how to improvise---that is a no-brainer, in the same way that it is
a no-brainer to think that the O'Connor Method teaches kids how to play
Classical Music.
Since there is no method currently out there that does it all, the best thing
to do is focus on what is best in each and draw from the strengths of each:
Learn the bread-and-butter of Classical Music from the Suzuki Method or
something similar, and learn folk/fiddle/improv from the Mark O'Connor Method
or something similar.
Allow me to define my own teaching
materials! This guy continually has it wrong. My method teaches classical
technique and it has a whole orchestra component! You are not adding anything
here at all except misinformation and misrepresentation of my teaching
materials as well as threats of boycott, intimidation, libel etc, We had both
Orchestra Book I and Book II at my Method Camps this year. That is why people
are coming to the O'Connor Method - it has it all and it is put together so
much better than Suzuki etc etc... People like Amy are not indoctrinated! They
just see the writing on the wall, and they recognize how valuable my Method is
by comparison. Thanks.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Allow me to define my own
teaching materials! This guy continually has it wrong. My method teaches
classical technique and it has a whole orchestra component! You are not adding
anything here at all except misinformation and misrepresentation of my teaching
materials as well as threats of boycott, intimidation, libel etc, We had both
Orchestra Book I and Book II at my Method Camps this year. That is why people
are coming to the O'Connor Method - it has it all and it is put together so
much better than Suzuki etc etc... People like Amy are not indoctrinated! They
just see the writing on the wall, and they recognize how valuable my Method is
by comparison. Thanks."
---Mark O'Connor
I'm all for ending this ridiculous discussion, and ending all the negative
propaganda. But it has to work both ways.
The Suzuki Method has co-existed peacefully with other violin methods for
decades. This issue only arose when Mark decided to wage this senseless
campaign in order to promote his own product.
The only way it will end is if Mark himself pulls the plug on his propaganda
machine.
It's pretty clear that he won't do it himself, so I think we need to gather
together and start letting people know what is going on. I really think the
most effective approach is to contact the various companies that sell Mark's
books and let them know who and what their brand is being associated with.
I have asked this internet stalker
Mathew Weiss to leave me alone - and now he is making threats against me and my
career. Would somebody please stop his personal intimidation and bullying of a
member here? If this guy is a representative of Suzuki - wow.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
" I have asked this internet
stalker Mathew Weiss to leave me alone - and now he is making threats against
me and my career. Would somebody please stop his personal intimidation and
bullying of a member here? If this guy is a representative of Suzuki - wow."
---Mark O'Connor
Nobody is bullying or stalking here---only providing a sensible viewpoint to
counter all the Suzuki-bashing.
I was lucky enough to take violin lessons from Dr. Suzuki himself when I was 8
years old and in Japan for a few weeks with my mom and sister in the early
1970's. This was part of my mom's Suzuki Teacher Training.
I also received Suzuki Teacher Training and taught the Suzuki Method while I
was a college kid and a few years after that until starting a career as an IT
professional in order to pay the bills and support my growing family.
Dr. Suzuki was such a wonderful man and tailored his approach to each child's
needs. Those lessons were so much fun! Since my sister and I were just kids we
took the whole thing in stride and didn't realize what a big deal it was until
much later in life.
I'm not an official representative of the Suzuki Method---only a concerned
parent, musician, composer, and Suzuki enthusiast.
Many thanks to everyone for their contributions :)
Unbecoming behavior coming from a
teacher and a parent - making personal threats towards individuals... Get a
life beyond stalking me around the internet please. Thanks.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Matt,
There's a lovely alliterative saying in education: retention requires review.
So, as you've obviously forgotten, I reiterate: just stop; you're making a fool
of yourself.
You said, "The Suzuki Method has co-existed peacefully with other violin
methods for decades. This issue only arose when Mark decided to wage this
senseless campaign in order to promote his own product."
I say, "Child labor co-existed peacefully with other industry methods for
decades. This issue only arose when people like Craig Kielberger decided to
wage his senseless campaign in order to promote his own product methods."
With it's slavish insistence on imitation & repetition, Suzuki is
borderline abusive, and it's high time someone waged a campaign to eradicate
it.
I challenge you to use O'Connor's books with your students, or the violin books
in the Jump Right In Series, or Chris Azzara's Improvisation books, or, at
minimum, read the research Eric and I have laid out for you, then come and say
Suzuki is the best we can do for kids.
Because if you can do that, after educating yourself, well then we will at
least have some clarity on the question of whether you're willfully uninformed,
or (and my money is still here) mean-spirited.
Hoping your meds kick in soon,
Ron
P.S. Oh, and if your memory DOES serve, you'll recall that the above was
formerly a tripartite structure which also questioned your musicianship. Having
listened keenly to your Youtube link and hearing--even with my drummer's
ear--the intonation flaws and odd phrasings, well, lets just say that question
has been laid to rest. Your turn to start basing your arguments on evidence, my
dear. Start here, it's free: http://giml.org/mlt/
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"There's a lovely
alliterative saying in education: retention requires review.
So, as you've obviously forgotten, I reiterate: just stop; you're making a fool
of yourself.
You said, "The Suzuki Method has co-existed peacefully with other violin
methods for decades. This issue only arose when Mark decided to wage this
senseless campaign in order to promote his own product."
I say, "Child labor co-existed peacefully with other industry methods for
decades. This issue only arose when people like Craig Kielberger decided to
wage his senseless campaign in order to promote his own product methods."
With it's slavish insistence on imitation & repetition, Suzuki is
borderline abusive, and it's high time someone waged a campaign to eradicate
it.
I challenge you to use O'Connor's books with your students, or the violin books
in the Jump Right In Series, or Chris Azzara's Improvisation books, or, at
minimum, read the research Eric and I have laid out for you, then come and say
Suzuki is the best we can do for kids.
Because if you can do that, after educating yourself, well then we will at
least have some clarity on the question of whether you're willfully uninformed,
or (and my money is still here) mean-spirited.
Hoping your meds kick in soon,
Ron
P.S. Oh, and if your memory DOES serve, you'll recall that the above was
formerly a tripartite structure which also questioned your musicianship. Having
listened keenly to your Youtube link and hearing--even with my drummer's
ear--the intonation flaws and odd phrasings, well, lets just say that question
has been laid to rest. Your turn to start basing your arguments on evidence, my
dear. Start here, it's free: http://giml.org/mlt/"
* Malanga
Hi Ron,
Thanks for your comments!
I think we've gone beyond the "who's the better violinist" topic.
It's not really relevant and Mark has already admitted that his training in
Classical Music is lacking.
Also the relative merits of the Suzuki Method -vs- the O'Connor Method are also
becoming less important in this conversation.
The real issue is Mark's stubborn adherence to a totally negative and
uninformed marketing campaign.
Again, let me reiterate that it's pretty clear that Mark's propaganda machine
is not going to stop on its own, so we need to let as many people
know---educators, parents, store owners, and so on, what is going on so that
they can make an informed decision before associating themselves with a person
or organization that does business in this way.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Matt,
I humbly apologize!! How could I have known that, as I was composing my prior
email excoriating you for basing your arguments on a paucity of evidence, you
were simultaneously writing this:
"I was lucky enough to take violin lessons from Dr. Suzuki himself when I
was 8 years old and in Japan for a few weeks..."
and this:
"I also received Suzuki Teacher Training and taught the Suzuki Method
while I was a college kid and a few years after that..."
Wow. A few weeks as an 8 year old. Your comparative analysis skills must have
been finely honed by that age. That coupled with a few years teaching?!? My
goodness, your pedagogic experience astounds.
And not in a good way.
Once more for the folks in the cheap seats: Matt, just stop, you're making a
fool of yourself.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"I humbly apologize!! How
could I have known that, as I was composing my prior email excoriating you for
basing your arguments on a paucity of evidence, you were simultaneously writing
this:
"I was lucky enough to take violin lessons from Dr. Suzuki himself when I
was 8 years old and in Japan for a few weeks..."
and this:
"I also received Suzuki Teacher Training and taught the Suzuki Method
while I was a college kid and a few years after that..."
Wow. A few weeks as an 8 year old. Your comparative analysis skills must have
been finely honed by that age. That coupled with a few years teaching?!? My
goodness, your pedagogic experience astounds.
And not in a good way.
Once more for the folks in the cheap seats: Matt, just stop, you're making a
fool of yourself.
Take your medicine,
Ron"
---Ron Malanga
Hi Everyone,
Before we start in on another mud-slinging fest, I ask you this:
Regardless of whether or not Mark's violin method is good (which I believe it
is for Folk/Fiddling/Improv) do you really want your kids to be part of such a
movement?
These days teenagers are quite internet-savvy and this kind of stuff gets
around on Facebook, etc.
To scapegoat a whole generation of students and teachers like this is really
intolerable in this day and age---we really want to teach our kids how to be
global citizens, not go back to emphasizing divisions, nationalism, promoting
xenophobia and so on.
Ron's letter is also the way I see
it. Suzuki has been very difficult on children's potential as musicians and
artists. With the amount of time, money and obsession on technique, drills and
250 year-old Baroque music, it is hard on those young children and their
aspirations of being an artist. And frankly, the two kids in my family I had
take as well as thousands who have left Suzuki that have been to my camps, it
was hard not to recognize that they have been through the ringer - and for what
purpose? To never be a good enough of a musician, not be happy enough standing
on your two feet and having to resort to what we have seen here, the bitterness
of a person that has so few musical aspirations left, he tears others down and
tries to prevent them from having a career? It is unseemly stuff. My criticism
of Suzuki comes under free speech. Mathew's attempt at taking down an
individual comes under bullying, intimidation, threats, slander and libel - all
of which are against the law. What Mathew is doing is just giving me more
positive exposure while it gives Suzuki more negative exposure. He is dumb
enough to think the opposite is happening.
In my research of Suzuki, I saw many aspects of this kind of character. There
is a pattern in that environment.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
I think we've gone beyond the
"who's the better violinist" topic. It's not really relevant and And
the hits just keep on coming!!!!
"Mark has already admitted that his training in Classical Music is
lacking."
---Training. You use that word as if it's not a pejorative. Training is for
monkeys and Suzuki adherents. Education is pertinent. And one listen to any of
his hundreds of performances and compositions indicates a wealth of classical
education no amount of training could ever inculcate.
"Also the relative merits of the Suzuki Method -vs- the O'Connor Method
are also becoming less important in this conversation."
---Not to me.
"The real issue is Mark's stubborn adherence to a totally negative and
uninformed marketing campaign."
---Can you really type that with a straight face? Vague notions regarding
subjective interpretations of negativity in marketing VS chasing thousands of
kids away from music through boredom? Wow.
Dude, you're really pushing me to the unfortunate dual conclusion of willfully
uninformed and mean spirited.
Ron your letters are completely
inappropriate for a public forum and full of childish rhetoric. I believe we
are a fully grown adult professionals here, may we act as such? Furthermore, I
would recommend you and Mark take it "outside" if you have a beef
with each other.
Sarah, Mathew's bullying and
intimidation as well as libel of an individual is not remedied by "taking
it outside." That "recommendation of "taking it outside" is
in itself childish. Here is what I am asking. If the Suzuki bullies could not
harass me online? Why is that so much to ask. I have no personal fight with
Mathew Weiss nor would I like to see his career diminish. But he wants exactly
that by wrongly defining my books insistently. He keeps mentioning my marketing
strategy. This is a teacher's forum where we discuss pedagogy and the good and
bad of it...
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Sarah, Mathew's bullying and
intimidation as well as libel of an individual is not remedied by "taking
it outside." That "recommendation of "taking it outside" is
in itself childish. Here is what I am asking. If the Suzuki bullies could not
harass me online? Why is that so much to ask. I have no personal fight with
Mathew Weiss nor would I like to see his career diminish. But he wants exactly
that by wrongly defining my books insistently. He keeps mentioning my marketing
strategy. This is a teacher's forum where we discuss pedagogy and the good and
bad of it..."
---Mark O'Connor
Hi Everyone,
Mark can claim that the so-called "Suzuki Warriors" are bullying him
and so on, but it's pretty clear that his whole campaign against the Suzuki
Method has gone way beyond the usual norms of professionalism, which is why so
many supporters of the Suzuki Method such as myself are getting involved.
Since Dr. Suzuki has passed on, the rest of us need help out in a way that is
appropriate to who we are.
Sirs, first and foremost by
"take it outside" I meant out of the public forum. You are all three
acting like children. Grow up and learn how to have a discussion. Don't you
dare drag me into this. But as a member of this group I expect appropriate and
civil discussions that benefit all. Your mud slinging is doing nothing but
creating dissension and division. If you can't be civil, maybe you shouldn't be
here discussing anything.
I rather enjoy picking through the
nonsense for the substance that IS here (maybe my previous comments? Some of
Mark's for sure. Ron said a couple good things too. Matt is trying to stand up
to something I don't quite understand yet. [I'll ask him to explain later.]).
Hard to find the aforementioned content sometimes, but I do know one thing: I
made a great friend being in here and am planning on sharing what I have to
offer as long as there are people here to hear it. I haven't made Matt mad to
my knowledge and I'd like to think that Mark thinks quite well of what I do.
He's said as much. So, if you're commenting about bullying, I won't engage
except for this one post. Matt, your best bet would be to leave well enough
alone. Mark has a lot to protect and promote and I understand where he's been.
If you think he's going to stop because of what you're saying, I'd say you'd be
quite wrong.
Matt,
In a very few words, what's the problem? That Mark calls Suzuki a cult? I'm
curious what's behind all this.
Sarah, I don't think Mark has anything against Ron or vice versa. Perhaps I
missed something. Maybe you meant Matt instead of Ron?
Ron, I want to borrow the meds you are suggesting for Matt. Got any? ;-)
Sarah, I am not sure if you read
the lead off post here attacking me...? If there is a way for Suzuki members to
leave me alone online and not assault me with personal attacks, that would be
great. Theirs is the behavior of "beautiful hearts" and "good
citizens." Give me a break! Really. I have a Method, and I have strong
criticism of Suzuki and his method. That should be fair.
Eric, John Kendall called Suzuki a
cult in his 1966 book. And in the video that is posted at the top of this
thread, he called Suzuki and his followers "clannish." If Mathew is
any indication of a typical Suzuki follower, there is absolutely nothing that diminishes
those statements from their merit!
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
" Eric, John Kendall called
Suzuki a cult in his 1966 book. And in the video that is posted at the top of
this thread, he called Suzuki and his followers "clannish." If Mathew
is any indication of a typical Suzuki follower, there is absolutely nothing
that diminishes those statements from their merit!"
* O'Connor
I find it very curious that Mark is so hung up on this idea of the Suzuki
Method being a cult.
Especially since at some point students were required to recite a Mark O'Connor
Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of each lesson, according to the
following article:
I'm glad you all are fired up!
That means there is probably something of substance to discuss at it's core.
But, Realllly?? This is just PART of change. Me?... I'm changing my settings
for this thread to weekly rather than daily.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Sarah,
I pray that prior to typing the above, you've read every post going back
well-nigh on two months.
If so, you'd see a specific devolution in the quality of rhetoric, mine
included, as persons such as Matt 1. refuse to educate themselves, 2. continue
to value their stances over their students, and 3. continue to attack an honest
man (O'Connor) with a straw man (statements suggesting his perfectly fair
promulgation of his method and his quoting of former Suzuki adherents who left
the veritable cult fall somehow outside the boundaries of civility.).
All three, are intolerable, and I'll continue challenge any writer who does any
of the above.
I do however like your recommendation that Matt and I take it outside.
Mathew Weiss keeps telling me how
to market my books! I don't think I need to ask his permission nor get his
approval! Besides, this is the standard marketing ad and I don't see a thing in
here about Suzuki. So I think he is very confused. Just like he was confused
about the satire and joke article. Not all of the parts of the engine
working...?
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"I rather enjoy picking
through the nonsense for the substance that IS here (maybe my previous
comments? Some of Mark's for sure. Ron said a couple good things too. Matt is
trying to stand up to something I don't quite understand yet. [I'll ask him to
explain later.]). Hard to find the aforementioned content sometimes, but I do
know one thing: I made a great friend being in here and am planning on sharing
what I have to offer as long as there are people here to hear it. I haven't
made Matt mad to my knowledge and I'd like to think that Mark thinks quite well
of what I do. He's said as much. So, if you're commenting about bullying, I
won't engage except for this one post. Matt, your best bet would be to leave
well enough alone. Mark has a lot to protect and promote and I understand where
he's been. If you think he's going to stop because of what you're saying, I'd
say you'd be quite wrong.
Matt,
In a very few words, what's the problem? That Mark calls Suzuki a cult? I'm
curious what's behind all this.
Sarah, I don't think Mark has anything against Ron or vice versa. Perhaps I
missed something. Maybe you meant Matt instead of Ron? "
* Rasmussen
Hi Eric,
Thanks for your comments!
I may have referenced some things that were said it this other LinkedIn thread:
This in from another long-time
Suzuki student and who is now majoring in music education getting her Masters.
We are finding this sentiment more and more. I can only think that this
"war" that Mathew Weiss has ginned up and others like Freeman have
ginned up based on my criticism of the Suzuki Method is sending Suzuki folks
right towards us like a rocket.
Part of me hates the fact that I am being personally assaulted, bullied and
intimidated by Mathew Weiss and other Suzuki acolytes like Freeman and many others.
It is slanderous, and not fair whatsoever. But it is clearly backfiring on
them. Look at just what happened here in the last few days. Weiss calls
everyone out to attack me and to threaten me at retail stores, calling them to
boycott my American String Method, and it did the opposite. It made people come
out and make him seem even more pathetic. It is pathetic. He has targeted me.
There have been many people here on this forum who have slammed Suzuki, but
Weiss is only interested in targeting me and damaging my career. It says a lot.
And it is not going to work. I think he just may be dumb and thick enough that
he might not get it... and it is only bringing people like Victoria (note
below) who once saw the Suzuki environment as fine for her... but now has a
real change of heart.
I literally saw her transform her opinion over this summer. She came to my
Berklee Camp in June only interested in advance studies from me and others. I
asked her to check out the Method for beginners and pointed her some of the
blogs on Suzuki where I was challenged by Suzuki teachers etc..., she was
shocked I believe. She and her parents, were turned off by the cultism and
invented history. Suzuki floated the idea that he "became a Catholic"
to try to appeal to Americans after the 1960s Zen Buddha interest was beginning
to fade from his followers. I actually wondered what people just like Victoria
would think about such a bizarre history and fraudulent history in music in
order to sell his books... She was busy during the Charleston camp she told me,
attending another camp she had enrolled in, but I encouraged her to come and
actually take the Teacher Training in the Method. I believe she was going to a
Suzuki Camp or had plans to... she completely reversed course in the next month...
must have talked to her parents as I think they continue to fund her along
these lines. I saw her in Charleston! She had cancelled the other camp and came
to mine in Charleston, this time for the Method. I ran into her father in the
hotel lobby and he said that I was quite a leader of something like that...
They must have really talked a lot about the very things that we are talking
about here... And she just wrote this letter to my website tonight. -MOC
"Hi Mr. O'Connor!
I hope this email finds you well! I had such a great time in Charleston.
Your method is genius, and is transforming the world of music. I cannot wait to
begin teaching.
Melissa and Pam Wiley were great. I know it takes so much work for you all to
run something like that. Thank you so much for a great week. -Victoria"
There is a lot of testimony, but
since I shared one from a teacher, allow me to share one from a parent about
her children who switched from Suzuki to O'Connor. -MOC
"Hi Pam! Just wanted to let you know it's been a big let down since
the camp...because the kids miss it so much. I know I told you this in person,
but they really had a wonderful time and so did Mark and I. Sorry for the
bullets below, but it helps with the points:
- MOC method is on point to what's needed; it was taking Sujin forever to learn
twinkle, and in one week, she learned four songs from MOC book 1 and she's asks
us daily to practice. We thought we were losing her on the violin before we
came to camp. There's a new enthusiasm from her. Can't beat that - getting your
kids to be enthusiastic about playing the violin! She also loved her teachers -
applause to Hazel, Ellen and Pattie for being so generous with their spirit of
music.
- Max absolutely loved camp - wished it was longer...could that be possible in
the future for the older ones? He learned so much in one week. The teachers
were truly exceptional - the best in the industry. I felt like we got a bargain
for all he learned...
- Can you share early on the camp dates for Boston and Charleston? I'll try to
have Max do both camps, and Sujin do one camp.
- Next year, please let me know if I can assist/volunteer with some of the
administrative stuff (I'm more than happy to host/manage the FB account or
anything else that may be needed).
- MOC is coming to Tallahassee in February, 2014. He's playing with the
Tallahassee Youth Orchestra. Max is not in the youth orchestra (they based it
on age/grade and not on ability). But....wondering if there's opportunity to
still meet MOC in Tallahassee...
- Max and Sujin have been playing the songs from his books everyday...Max needs
book 4, when will it be in publication? He's been playing Emily's Reel
EVERYDAY...both a plus/minus only because it's in my head playing over and
over..."
That is absolutely hilarious that
after the many videos I have posted here, that Caroline believes I have a
violin rivalry with Mathew Weiss? Really! I have made three recordings with
Yo-Yo Ma. Ever heard of him? I am trying not to be sarcastic, but c'mon! Here
is my YouTube highlight reel. Start there and get back to me.
note: Suzuki has a whole chapter in his autobiography about Pablo Casals but
hardly shook his hand and never played one note with the man. By contrast, I
will have have a whole chapter on Yo-Yo Ma in my autobiography and we toured
the world together, and he has played my composition "Appalachia
Waltz" before Presidents and Royalty. Just another distinction between
Suzuki and myself. Enjoy!
It is great you mention that Adam:
The Kennedy Library used my music for the official 50th anniversary of his
Inaugural Address. They had me quote a few words of it as well.
The Albert Einstein mentorship of
Shinichi Suzuki has been used effectively for five decades as a marketing tool
for the Suzuki Method, but researcher Margaret Mehl, Dr. Phil. (Bonn), Dr.
Phil. (Copenhagen) reports that any relationship was unlikely:
“Suzuki received the greater part of his formal musical training in Berlin in
the 1920s…Unfortunately, Suzuki’s own writings provide little information
beyond a couple of famous names and a few anecdotes…
One of the few Germans Suzuki mentions in his recollections is Albert Einstein.
By the time Suzuki wrote, Einstein, already famous in the 1920s, had become an
icon of the twentieth century and a popular name for any person to link their
own with. Suzuki’s relationship with Einstein was surely less intimate than he
suggests (Suzuki, 1983, pp. 76-77, 1985a). After all Einstein had a wide circle
of friends and acquaintances and spent much time travelling in the 1920s –
including a trip to Japan, where he stayed from 17 November to 29 December
1922, returning to Berlin via Palestine in February 1923.
Suzuki relates that he was introduced to Einstein by a Professor Michaelis, who
had met Shin’ichi’s father in Nagoya and asked Einstein to act as his
“guardian” when he himself accepted an invitation to teach at Johns Hopkins
University in Baltimore.(12) This account does not square with known facts.
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Lennon, Kennedy, Einstein...Let's
try this one:
"Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim
at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well." - Mahatma Gandhi
(Let's hope he isn't on a youtube video Improvising folk variations on
Perpetual Motion. :)
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
Hi Everyone,
I am going to try to respond to various posts above in a way that is free of
any rhetoric and hopefully clearly explains my stance in it's most essential
form:
1. The Mark O'Connor Method does not teach Classical Music
Reasoning: The method books do not contain Classical Music. In order to teach
students Classical Music it is necessary for the students to actually play
Classical Music.
2. Mark O'Connor is not a Classical Musician
Reasoning: Mark O'Connor does not play Classical Music. In order for a person
to be considered a Classical Musician, it is necessary for a person to play
Classical Music.
3. In order to cover up the above and market his unique violin method Mark
O'Connor has launched an all-out attack on the Suzuki Method and I suspect
Classical Music in general.
4. Mark O'Connor is an excellent violinist with excellent technique and a
unique kind of musicianship that works well within a quasi-classical/crossover
genre that he has created for himself.
It would be great to get a response to the above besides "Matt is a bad
person, mean-spirited, an amateur violinist, Suzuki cultist, internet stalker,
needs to take his meds,.." and so on :)
My Caprice No. 3 in A Major is
classical music, so say countless music journalists and musicians. Have a view.
(note: obviously this is not old-time fiddling/bluegrass, jazz or improv). The
Caprices will be included in the late O'Connor Method books for advanced
technique. I do have one of the Bach Prestos included in Book IV, Dvorak's
favorite Spiritual Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, Gershwin's Fascinating Rhythm, a
Piazzolla Tango, and many other classics. There is an entire series for string
orchestra of the O'Connor Method, for elementary thru high school. The O'Connor
Method aims to bolster the string orchestra in a new way from previous models.
The O'Connor Method is an American Classical Method - mostly all American
composers including yours truly. It is building better all around string
players for the 21st Century, rather than an all European Model of Suzuki which
exclusively features music from over 200 years ago, not hardly dipping into the
1800s.
Here is my lecture on American
Classical Music at UCLA. Running time about an hour. Dr. Robert Winter,
professor of composition and one of the leading authorities on Classical music
edited my script for the presentation to 500 students at UCLA. This is 2008,
just before my Method was released.
Violin
Teacher at Guidlhall School of Music and Drama
Mr O'Connor (whom I don't know
personally) and Eric (whom I do know),
This conversation is so refreshing. I have taught in America for 10 years and I
teach now at Guildhall in London (Junior Department). I have nothing good to
say about Suzuki method. I sometime have to teach some 4 or 5 years old who
have been taught only one year or two with the Suzuki method and it takes me
the same amount of time to erase the bad habits. In a nut shell: they don't
listen. They don't even know anymore that they can listen. They have become
little robots.
I could feel the "cult" in America and even more in London now. I
never found the right words to "criticise" the method (if I happen to
be asked by some mum why I don't teach Suzuki) but your conversation is a
passionate and so truthful account of the reality as a violin teacher.
Thanks,
Florence
Thanks Florence, your story is
something we have been hearing literally by the thousands of people over the
last 20 years at my string camps and on the road for my lecture demonstrations.
It is one of the main reasons that compelled me to author a Method. Quite
frankly, if I had thought that Suzuki was even 75% of the quality it should be,
I would not have taken 10 years to author the Method. But my research on the
man Shinichi Suzuki, observing Suzuki student failures, Suzuki teacher
dissatisfaction, stats of the downturn in creative violin talents over the last
50 years, interviews of countless people, my own family's kids in Suzuki for a
couple of years before both quitting, and the thousands who have been through
my camps who either quit Suzuki or quit the violin altogether is substantial
information. I put the quality of the Suzuki Method at a dismal percentage.
Only a few will get through it at this point and come out a happy musician on
the other side. I am certain of that fact. Here is an interesting article that
our lead teacher trainer wrote: "Confessions of a Former Suzuki
Teacher." She knew Shinichi Suzuki so it is particularly insightful.
Violin
Teacher at Guidlhall School of Music and Drama
Dear M. O'Connor. I do feel the
"Suzuki cult" pressure here in England,
even more than in the states. Theer is also the Kodaly cult. This is why
it's so important that someone with your credential takes the big leap and
openly criticising Suzuki. I can't have much impact.
On another note, I will be looking for your method (I am ashamed to say I
didn't know about it). I just released an app ( http://itunes.com/apps/violinlessons <http://itunes.com/apps/violinlessons>
) which is not a method at all: merely old good violin exercises from old
good masters. It helps the mums at home to practice with the kids.
I will do some research about your summer camps as well.
Thanks again for being such an inspiration in the Music business!
Florence
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
I wonder why you call the music
concept of Zoltan Kodaly a "cult"? Kodaly was interested in helping
promote music literacy! Although his material is specific to his own homeland,
Hungary, he uses folk music -- the music of his mother tongue and his people--
to teach musicianship. The solfege system of singing is more theoretical than
the Suzuki method of playing an instrument. To learn with Kodaly, your voice is
your instrument of learning FIRST. To sing in tune you must learn proper breath
support and control, which is good for the vocal folds. You learn pitch
relationships. I would not call this type of learning "cultish" any
more than you'd call Mark's or any method the same thing. Kodaly teaches music
reading and keys and scales, intervals and harmony --- a rather complete
understanding of intonation and musical structure from beat to music history
and appreciation. How can this be freakish? It is graded and highly structured
and is inclusive of all necessary rhythmic elements, taught in a logical order
using folk songs and dances as well as music of the great masters, teaching
music forms and giving much pleasure to the learners. It is active learning,
not passive. Please explain your intent in using Kodaly as an example of a
cult?? It is a curriculum. Thanks.
Laura, I was referring to a cult
with religious ethics to Suzuki. Quasi-religious cult following. Here is the
article. The Method is central to it and is infused with this cultist
quasi-religious axioms as other people in the ranks have come out to say.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"This conversation is so
refreshing. I have taught in America for 10 years and I teach now at Guildhall
in London (Junior Department). I have nothing good to say about Suzuki method.
I sometime have to teach some 4 or 5 years old who have been taught only one
year or two with the Suzuki method and it takes me the same amount of time to
erase the bad habits. In a nut shell: they don't listen. They don't even know
anymore that they can listen. They have become little robots.
I could feel the "cult" in America and even more in London now. I
never found the right words to "criticise" the method (if I happen to
be asked by some mum why I don't teach Suzuki) but your conversation is a
passionate and so truthful account of the reality as a violin teacher.
Thanks,
Florence"
---Florence Altenburger
Hi Florence, Ron, and others.
You really should think twice before publicly supporting Mark's negative
campaign against the Suzuki Method. How can this be anything but damaging to
your reputations and careers in the long run?
It is fine to be critical of a certain methodology and point out where it might
need improvement, but to label children as robots? Accuse them and their
parents as being members of a cult?
Mark's books do have some good stuff in them, and I'm sure your students are
benefiting from those, but you really should be joining the rest of us in
encouraging Mark to stop this senseless campaign so that we can all go back to
enjoying music and making our world a better place for us and the kids.
I have already said that I have
written all of the articles that I am going to write on the subject as far as
the Suzuki cult, invented relationship with Einstein, invented endorsement of
Casals, his failed entrance exam to the Berlin Conservatory in 1923, his
invented "eight years" with violin professor Klingler in Berlin, what
he and his family were actually doing during WWII as opposed to what he claimed
he was doing which was being interned for two years and finally some Chinese
Herbal remedies made him all better in 1945. Remember, the war for Japan
started in the mid 1930s with their invasion of Russia. Their war lasted a
dozen years and more and it involved their population. And then all of the
failures of the pedagogy partially based on pre WWII ethics from that
environment. So, I have all the articles written... They are on my blog. I am
turning to other things unless someone has questions or comments for me.
Thanks.
I keep coming back to this thread
because I'm learning from it. Learning all sorts of different things. Both Ron
and Eric have already influenced the way I teach music lessons to a certain
degree and I'm looking forward to learning more about Edwin Gordon. Mark
O'Connor had already had a small influence on my teaching and I appreciate his
words against a method that I have only seen turn out enthusiastic musicians in
a couple of instances (i.e. the very poorly devised Suzuki method). I don't
think the discussion would have continued for nearly as long without the
amazingly ignorant blatherings and attacks of Matt so I suppose I'm thankful
for his participation too, although his mindless support of a method that any
reasonable musician should be able to realize is mediocre at best is a bit
taxing to read. But caroline vriesendorp? You've done nothing but complain
about people not getting along in a most insistent and annoying manner. Just
quit reading why don't you? You apparently have nothing to contribute on the
subject. Mark... soldier on. I'm going to start steering people away from the
Suzuki books that we offer for sale in the music store I teach at! Matt wants
to organize some sort of petty campaign? I'll participate on the other side...
lol.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Oh Matty, Matt, Matt, Matteo,
You wrote:
"Hi Florence, Ron, and others. You really should think twice before
publicly supporting Mark's negative campaign against the Suzuki Method. How can
this be anything but damaging to your reputations and careers in the long
run?"
You likely cannot conceive of the fulminating obloquy of expletives that came
to mind after I read that none-too-subtle threat.
So while restraining my fingers from suggesting you be fruitful and multiply
(but not in those words), please allow me to instead address two other quotes
of yours. The first is factually inaccurate and the second states an opinion
with which I happen to agree.
I am not, as you erroneously claim, "publicly supporting Mark's negative
campaign against the Suzuki Method..." Here's what is happening:
Mark O'Connor has pointed out facts; facts about Suzuki the man, his method,
it's promulgation, and it's cultural impact. Facts are remarkably stubborn
things that I chose to embrace, even when they force change on me or others.
You also wrote, "It is fine to be critical of a certain methodology and
point out where it might need improvement..." In this we agree. This is
the crux of it for me; methodological integrity and it's impact on kids and
culture.
My reasoning, numbered just like you like it, follows:
1. To the extent a method lacks integrity, curriculum suffers.
2. To the extent that they experience such a curriculum, kids suffer.
3. To the extent such a curriculum is pervasive & perpetuated, culture
suffers.
Kids and culture have suffered as a result of generations of the ubiquitous,
but impoverished Suzuki method. That is a fact.
Here is an opinion: it's time for a change to curricula of greater merit, such
as, but not limited to, Mark O'Connor's.
So, with your next post, while you are certainly free to continue to
demonstrate your virtuosity for opining whilst avoiding facts, do not dare
insinuate my reputation or career are threatened by my embracing facts and
necessary change.
Weiss is a bully, intimidation is
his tactic. He threatens people here such as Ron with language like; if you
know what's good for you, I wouldn't do that if I were you... An online thug.
To know that this guy is a part time violin teacher is unbelievable. To know
that he is a Suzuki teacher ("true believer") is obviously less
unbelievable. He is like a rabid dog who will not unlock his jaw on a bone. It
is disgusting behavior. He tells us that he does not belong to a Suzuki school
nor he is an official, so he has no purpose for doing what he is doing other
than being hateful towards individuals.
I have asked him repeatedly for months to leave me alone on the internet (there
is time for discussion, time for argument with an individual in some cases,
then it MUST wind down in a reasonable amount of time. It must). I just can't
lose the guy off my shirt tails. He is making a journal of his invented
relationship with me. His behavior is actually somewhat like
Suzuki...fictitious relationships to lift yourself up, putting yourself on the
level of others and inventing his own set of facts in order to make that case.
I just don't think that street thugs should be able to come in here and have
one thing in mind - to try to destroy someone's livelihood. In society, there
should be no be room for this grotesque behavior.
No mater what I do here - it will never threaten Weiss' livelihood. He has a
non-music career as he told the forum earlier. What I do or say won't threaten
anybody's livelihood as a teacher who can simply teach out of my books and make
their living that way instead, or another method book... It is like a painter
changing a canvas or a composer going from manuscript to Finale. He is still a
painter, and she is still a composer. Weiss is just doing this to be
despicable, giving ironic meaning to his Suzuki morals "Good Citizen"
and "Beautiful Heart."
Violin
Teacher at Guidlhall School of Music and Drama
Weiss threatening comment was very
bizarre really. How could I be "in danger" in stating an opinion? And
how can he imagine he has any control over my career?
It's actually an act of being a professional musician/teacher to refuse to
accept a "method" 200% without re-thinking it all. I don't follow one
method, I follow my students who teach me how to teach them. I follow many many
great teachers, musicians, methods, creative tricks...
I hope he is an isolated Suzuki teacher, he is not serving Suzuki at all.
I do re-instate what I have said earlier about Suzuki method and I have thought
twice about it!
Florence
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
“Do not think of knocking out
another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as
rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten
years ago.”― Horace Mann
Adam, I am making it crystal clear
here - I don't care if Weiss has a different opinion than mine or the rest of
the people on this thread. What is wrong, morally wrong, legally wrong is to
pursue someone online with bullying, intimidation, threats, slander and libel
as an advocate of Suzuki. I don't care if the guy thinks Suzuki is a Zen Buddha
who is resurrected from the Samurai Warrior of Imperial Japan (which he
actually refers to in a few of his biographies as his background). But that
does not give anyone the opportunity to harass an individual and threaten their
career. It should be stopped immediately before it escalates further. That is
the peace you speak of that is needed, that is required now. I have every right
to be critical of any method that does not work for my kids and my students.
Period. Just like any parent has, just like any teacher has. My motivations, or
his perception of my motivations is frankly none of his business. I don't want
him inside my head, or within any kind of proximity to me. He is a thug and an
online bully and it is behavior that is sickening. Should not be tolerated.
Rather than Weiss asking everyone here to ruin my career, I would like to ask
everyone here to not ruin his career, but just simply ask him to get another
hobby other than stalking me on the internet. Ask him to just quit talking
about me. He is obsessed with me and it should stop now! Please!
Author:
"The Quest for String Playing Mastery", Artistic Director: Crane
Classical Music Society
Since this thread seems impossible
to evaporate. Silence is golden for all. I would like to encourage everyone to
start new positive threads about keeping music alive in main stream education
and in society. Let's all learn from what transpired and agree that everyone is
entitled to their research, opinions and free speech, free and clear of
personal affronts, perceived or implied. Happy musicians inspire students! It
would be terrific to see this forum flooded with new positive and innovative,
non-combative collective content. * "True Music Educator's Forum",
where agreeing to disagree is a good thing, no need to prove one's credibility
or defend it and a discussion rule for all that none is to ever crosses any
line of human decency! Everyone -- Please take a breathe and look at the world
for a moment. Okay, now let's appreciate some healthy perspective. It is time
to stop the conflict here for good, and live the peace we wish to see. Music is
emotional and intellectual and drives greatness, when channeled into shared
purpose.
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Adam,
I love the Horace Mann quote. But just in case it's directed at me, please be
aware that while I value diversity of opinion, I abhor eschewing of facts;
particularly when kids suffer as a result.
Yearbook
editor at Edmonds Music Teacher Association
In 20 years of piano teaching I
had several transfer students who had started on the
Suzuki piano method, and tried it for a couple of others who were at a
beginning level.
The results were so unsuccessful - the students never either read or improvised
as well as my other students, so I started recommending parents NOT to use the
Suzuki method for piano students. That was between 1994 and 1996. My studio
got along fine without it ever since.
Thank you Lee for sharing this
information as well as Ron, Florence, Adam, Eric, Hanz and others... I have a
rather shocking story that I must share with you to help conclude my part of
this thread. I have a very good young friend, a young female singer-songwriter
who is the daughter of a former fiddle teacher of mine. She just made an EP and
I went by to listen to her rough mixes just yesterday. As a very close family
friend I had agreed to play on a few tracks which I typically don't hire myself
out for anymore as a session player these days. She plays guitar, write songs
and sings in an alternative folk-rock style.
Because both of her parents are old-time and celtic fiddlers, she has sometimes
mentioned to me that she had messed around with the fiddle when she was a kid.
And she actually possesses the violin that my teacher owned the legendary folk
fiddlers Benny Thomasson, an instrument that her father acquired after Benny's
death in 1984 and later gave to her as a present. Of course I am a little mind
boggled that she has that instrument as she never plays the violin whatsoever.
One of my favorite sayings that I repeat a lot is that I have never met an
'"ex-fiddler." Clearly my young friend is an exception to that rule.
She evidently played at one time in her childhood and no longer plays the
fiddle! Weird. So I know of one who doesn't live up to that code.
When I came out with the O'Connor Method four years ago she was a little hot
and cold about it oddly. She is a very smart young lady having graduated from
Columbia University and often she gives me a hard time in a kidding kind of way
as friends. She often told me that she is not really into "methods"
for music but over the course of the last 4 years she obviously has seen how my
Method has taken off and become a very important focus in my life and since has
become personally far more supportive of its goals and reach.
Then out of nowhere last week, she was texting me about something or other, and
she dropped a bombshell. She revealed that she was a Suzuki student as a young
girl. Since her father was an old-time fiddler and one of my teachers, and her
mother a Celtic fiddler who I didn't know back when I was a kid but who he
later married and had a daughter with, I surely thought she was pulling my leg.
I texted back hahahaha. That's a good one. She wrote back, no it is the truth.
She had never told me this! She was embarrassed by this. She had told no one in
our circles this. I texted back quickly asking what age and for how long? She
said age 3, Suzuki piano for 7 years and Suzuki violin for 3 years
concurrently. I was shocked. I asked how could her "folk music"
parents put her in that system? "They thought it would be good for me
because of how well-known it was and that I would get a proper education on
those instruments." Well she quit them both and never returned to them,
even though she owns Benny Thomasson's fiddle, the legendary Texas fiddle icon
and my great mentor. Years later in high school she picked up the guitar and
started strumming and singing. She plays guitar and sings today for her hobby,
she is in online marketing analyst for her career. She does not play the piano
or violin. We lost yet another creative soul out of the Suzuki Method on our
beloved instrument, the violin.
Something is very, very wrong with the Suzuki Method that discards creative
people and musicians. Hopefully this story, the likes of many thousands I have
heard that are similar... will help wind this thread down so we can move on to
more productive discussions about where we want to take music education for
kids. But clearly that status quo doesn't work for the vast majority of people.
Thank you for listening and I have started another thread on Linkedin under the
O'Connor Method, please join me over there and become a member if you would
like. Let's have more fun than this sobering Suzuki stuff. Onwards. Thanks all.
-Mark O'Connor (The O'Connor Method)
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Mark,
Thanks for the poignant, yet all-too-common story.I'll put my period on the end
of this thread's comments with my similar story.
The Malanga men were all quite musical. My great-uncle Hugo had a nationwide
radio show in the late 40's/early 50's. His younger brother was the house
pianist at Tavern on the Green for decades, and his older brother, my
grandfather, was accomplished on the mandolin and flute.
My father was a self-taught organist who could improvise 3-part fugues with his
hands and feet. Be that as it may, he considered himself to be less of a
musician because he never learned to read music.
So, ostensibly to remedy this for me, I was put into very traditional
eye-to-hand piano lessons at age 4 (I quit them as soon as I was permitted to;
at age 9).
Thus, I lost out on the creative, improvisatory side of music-making until
finding Edwin Gordon's work 15 years ago. Through Gordon's work, I understand
now why I'll likely never be a proficient improviser.
***SKIP THIS IF YOU DON'T WANT THE IN A NUTSHELL SCIENCE. In language and music
birth to age 9 is fundamental; what is missed can never be regained. This is
because around age nine the myelination of the Great Commisures of the Corpus
Callosum happens, physically changing the brain. This change further activates
the frontal lobes, but largely de-activates the structures that allow language
& music to be absorbed so readily at early ages, assuming kids are given
the proper experiences. And what are those experiences? The listening and error
making & discovering & correcting 'conversational' aspects of
improvisation.***
Thankfully, also largely through Dr. Gordon's work I'm doing more improvising
and creating than I ever believed possible after 20+ years of trying the
traditional scales & cliches methods out there.
So, long story short, my dad did the same thing.
He put me in a system he thought it would be good for me. Why did he think
this? The hold that ideas of literacy dragged over from language has over music
teaching is powerful. And parents buy into the usefulness of reading in
language then mistakenly assume it to be the center of music learning as well.
Teachers often exacerbate the problem. In a misguided effort to seem academic,
it's as if we music teachers are constantly saying, "See! See!? We read
too!!" And thus, we often start in to reading far too soon for most kids
to the detriment of the more important foundation skills of listening moving singing
& improvising.
Regardless, I don't begrudge persons who, before the advent of Google tried to
do the best they could with limited information. But today? Bring on the data!!
Let's squelch out the un-informed procedures preventing so many from meeting
their innate musical potential.
My personal #musiced story
#musedchat on LinkedIn #suzuki battle
Nicely put, Ron. My mom and dad paid for piano lessons in 3rd-12th grade and
trumpet lessons in 4-12 grade and beyond. I got straight A's on everything I
did without trying. When I continued music ed in college, I had some
challenges. One big one: I could not improvise to save my life. Still, even
after graduating as a music ed Masters degree student at a well known
university, could not "audiate" my way out of a paper bag. I was a
good code decipherer and not much else.
The fact is that as I started using Gordon's Music Learning Theory in my
classrooms, I found that many of my children were better musicians than me.
Long, slow, steady progress (because of an above average level of music
aptitude and a solid intrinsic motivation) eventually made me an adequate
improvisor in Dixieland, blues, some of the simpler standards. Teaching music
using Gordon's distinctions in how children best learn music—quite different
from how teachers learn to teach—has afforded me continuing growth as a
musician. I didn't swing very well until after college. Why? I wasn't
acculturated in that style. Now that I am, I pass it along to babies and
toddlers so that this is the result by PreK and K. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzarRg7reXcThey
Swing!
I also teach these harmonic functions to my 1st and 2nd graders now:
Major: I, V7, IV, vi, ii, V7/V (ex: D7 in C), V7/vi, V/ii, V/V/V (A7 in C),
V/V/V/V (E7 in C)
Minor: i, V7, iv, VI, VII, V/iv
(I couldn't do what they're doing myself just a few years ago.)
I teach the above NOT by any theory or any of the symbols you see above, but BY
EAR and songs. These children will be well-primed to improvise. Not only that,
but they'll understand a good percentage of the harmonic functions in most
classical music. Once the ear is in place, and improvisation/creativity is
solid, it's OK to start reading music. Not necessary. Ask Errol Garner what he
can read. Nothing. Art Tatum too, obviously. If you don't know Mr. Garner, here
(hear): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VHUpGxFJJ8
Victor Wooten has it down beautifully what else I'm trying to say here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvjW9arAZ0
Best 18 minutes of music education ever!
A must for all musicians (who teach by default) and music teachers to
understand from which he speaks.
We're talking about a ton of personal nonsense above. I contributed a bit
myself. It's human nature. That's not going to change very easily. Neither is
music education unless people like Mark, Ron, Florence, Lee, etc., speak up
against the ineffectual
methods of last century and the one before that (still thriving somehow mostly
in Europe). The horse and buggy will make way for the Tesla, eventually.
Gordon's seminal and voluminous music education research has been either
ignored or misunderstood by many. All of whom have little right to talk about
methods except based on bias and ignorance. Show me your kids or contribute
something that's not about manners you think everyone should have. Some of you
participants in this discuss are manner bullies. We're adults, supposedly, and
I think we should understand by now that the world isn't going to be the way
you like it and others aren't always going to be the way you want them to be.
Tough boogers. I'm a slow learner in this regard too, but sometimes it's the
slower learners that have the patience and compassion for how some of our
troubled learners go about their lives navigating through the "be like I
want you to be" kind of teaching that is hurting children.
Unlike some, I don't want to see this thread die. Only that those who don't
like it go somewhere else.I'll keep stirring the pot here for the purpose of
dismantling many of the music ed practices that we all use. I learn every year.
I'm not stuck. Methods, as such, are in stone, if they are not adaptive to the
individual needs of our students and how they best learn music.
Eric, I have to add here - (thank
you Ron for that amazing letter - what a story you have) thank you for your
wonderful letter too Eric and your story. And you are right, Victor Wooten's
video is right on. I don't know if you know this, but I was one of Victor's
first musical friends. We hung out together all the time in our 20s, he drove
my old red pickup for years. He will be a prominent personality in my
autobiography that I am working on. I have always loved Victor... I will used
this video in my educational platform Eric. I had not seen it yet. It runs 180%
counter to Suzuki's (non-researched) claim about "music,"
"language" and the "mother tongue." Absolutely 180%
opposite. It is maddening that "we" (the musical environment has
allowed Suzuki Method to perpetuate in our violin and string universe. It has
set us back immeasurably. Here is a video of Victor and I in our
music/skateboard show we put on back in the early 90s. We improvised the whole
way! Wow.....
Music
Teacher; Horizon School, Dubai and Music Education Pedagogy Specialist
Mark,
Keep fighting the good fight!
and
Dr. Eric RizzRazz 'Tough Boogers' Rasmussen,
You are, by far, the coolest Phd I know. Your students are so blessed to have
an educator who enjoys learning. I hate that we didn't get to have that beer in
Chicago.
Singer,
Vocal Music Educator, Choral Director, Piano Instructor, Accompanist,
Songwriter
I'd just like to reiterate that
Kodaly, in my opinion, is a very helpful, highly structured and sequenced
curriculum and method that uses the voice as the main instrument of learning.
Learning takes place through a process of kinesthetic, aural and visual lessons
and activities.Students are 'prepared' for concepts by experiencing them
physically with a good repertoire of folk music -- while singing and playing
games as well as learning folk dances too.
Eventually after much preparation (and fun) i.e., repetition of music, students
are presented the concept visually and explanation/discussion of what they
already sense through prior experience; and finally they practice the new
learning with writing and reading activities as well as learning new songs
incorporating the new rhythm or scale degree concept they were just introduced
to. Practicing continues as tnew concepts are prepared and presented...
layering and building . Performance and assessments are the final steps for the
teacher to use to check learning and mastery. Although it is rather obvious
though all parts of this process for the teacher to see mastery through the
participation and performance of the students. Assessments are formative and
ongoing in observation and in the written learning.
Singing with good to excellent intonation is key to this method for vocal
teachers and learning the scale degrees and interval relationships as well as
performing ensembles vocally with the use of ostinati and canon as well as
partner songs alone make this an excellent music education program for aspiring
young instrumentalists as well. Reading preparation and learning forms through
the use of folk dance as well as the lessons using art music by great composers
give us a very well-rounded experience. I supplement with lessons on playing chromatic
melody bells and djembe drumming as well as conducting simple meters to various
styles of music and also teach in depth one western composer or a musical style
unit of study each year, grades 1-6. We have an after school chorus program for
children in grades 2-6.
Three levels of performance, training, core singers and advanced(ensembles)
which participate in professional association sponsored events/festivals etc.
All choruses perform several times each year in public.
We don't have an instrumental teacher at this time, but we've had strings and
world drumming classes with musicians from our city symphony. Keeping these
subcontracted teachers seems to be a trick....their schedules fluctuate or a
class doesn't make 'big' enough by their set deadline, and they drop our
program. Very frustrating for kids and parents who invest in instruments!
These programs may look nice on paper, but the best way to give good programs
is to have the district put it in the school day and fork out the dough to have
the staff and equipment provided on site.
Our last strings teacher was a Suzuki teacher. There are districts that are
'Kodaly' districts....all music teachers take training to be nationally
certified in Kodaly so that the curriculum is consistently taught from K-12.
I'd like to see some studies on how this impacts the music education of the
students. Anyone know of any of these studies on Kodaly in the U.S.? Thanks.
Violin
Teacher at Guidlhall School of Music and Drama
I have a deep admiration for Eric
(I followed his seminar 5 years ago in Baltimore and was blown away). A lot of
the improvisation is really hard for me: I come from the strictest French
solfege from 4 to 19 and it has "fixed" a lot how I hear. This is not
something that goes away easily.
And I have the deepest admiration for Mark (a phenomenal player). So, thank you
for being so inspiring.
The Suzuki group near I lived refused some of their students to join one of my
orchestras (I have 2 orchestras, one is for beginners and is a lot of fun).
They wrote me a huge letter basically saying that they didn't want their
students to "damage" their ears with bad intonation and bad sound!
They had never heard my orchestra before! I was so shocked, I started to answer
them but it was escalating to the point that I stopped trying to justify my
good work.
In any case, thank you Mark, Rom and Eric and my task is now, back in London,
to study Mark's method. I might very well have a Pamela Wiley
"moment" (even if I have never been a Sukuki teacher).
Florence
Hi, Laura,
Yes, I'm fairly familiar with Kodaly. Most of what you say about it I have no
qualms with. Singing in tune, dancing, preparation, repetition, practice,
performance. It is sequenced. It certainly was better than the standard
European model and far better than what was happening in public school music
education in the US at the time. Can't say anyone had as brilliant a
folk/jazz/blues scene as the US had back in those days though. Mark would
attest to that I'm sure. Why didn't the US develop our own Kodaly method
adaptation using American literature?
I've got a bunch of questions for you if that's ok.
What folk music do you use nowadays? What IS in the public ear, like what
Hungary had in the early 20th century? Kodaly was quite right to base his
education model on what music children were being acculturated in at the time.
I think Gordon and he would agree on the importance of music in families and
society being the basis for later formal music education.
Do you think that that specific folk music is the most appropriate for today's
children? Why? Is it widely varied in terms of context? Harmonically,
melodically, rhythmically?
Do you use So-Mi songs? Do you believe that is the best way to start young
voices? Why? Based on the "folk" repertoire you use? Is that folk
music familiar like Hungarian folksongs would have been to the children in
Hungary? And then add La, Re, Do, in that order? Do you use that sequence of
tones? How much minor do the kids get and when? Other tonalities and meters? Do
you use hand signs? Are they a visual representation of notes (visual) or tones
(aural)? What is the purpose for them?
There was no mention of creativity or improvisation in your explanation. Also,
it seems as though your programs at the higher levels are very performance
based. Prepare for the concerts and then perform. (Nothing wrong with that in
and of itself. Just trying to get a better understanding of your work.)
Anything I missed or would you like to add a comment to these two points?
I'm interested to hear your answers. I'm happy to find common ground and also
to find points of contention between us. Both are assured.
being Member of a Group , I expect that Members respect each other ............
first then , we can have a Discussion.
If we allow the way how this whole thread went : we would be people without
morals.
Your contribution will be to see that people will not buy Books of Suzuki in
the Shop
where you have the possibility to teach and have an income..........
You should be loyal to the manager of this shop and not interfere in his sale.
And what was your contrubution to this Discussion ? Just reading.........
Looking up to your great Leader Mr. MOC..........."" soldier on
"".......it is no War 2 .....
My mother was a great violin player ......grew up in Djakarta and Japan
.........
was from an Europian Family ..........so Mr. Klein: I do know enough about all
this stuff
She was teached by great Musicians..............
Her sister is a famous Fluteplayer in Germany........older now ......but still
having old
students coming in for a lesson before giving a Concert........
One of them is the first Flute Player in the Orchestra of Zubin Meta.......I do
know a lot..
But I made the choice to keep my mouth shut and go for decent behaviour
..............
Well..........it seems that a few members found each other ..............Good
Luck .......
I worked with ALL the famous people over the World.........
So I hope you will find YOUR way.......and NOT become a follower OF !!!!
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"I'd just like to reiterate
that Kodaly, in my opinion, is a very helpful, highly structured and sequenced
curriculum and method that uses the voice as the main instrument of learning.
Learning takes place through a process of kinesthetic, aural and visual lessons
and activities.Students are 'prepared' for concepts by experiencing them
physically with a good repertoire of folk music -- while singing and playing
games as well as learning folk dances too.
Eventually after much preparation (and fun) i.e., repetition of music, students
are presented the concept visually and explanation/discussion of what they
already sense through prior experience; and finally they practice the new
learning with writing and reading activities as well as learning new songs incorporating
the new rhythm or scale degree concept they were just introduced to. Practicing
continues as tnew concepts are prepared and presented... layering and building
. Performance and assessments are the final steps for the teacher to use to
check learning and mastery. Although it is rather obvious though all parts of
this process for the teacher to see mastery through the participation and
performance of the students. Assessments are formative and ongoing in
observation and in the written learning.
Singing with good to excellent intonation is key to this method for vocal
teachers and learning the scale degrees and interval relationships as well as
performing ensembles vocally with the use of ostinati and canon as well as
partner songs alone make this an excellent music education program for aspiring
young instrumentalists as well. Reading preparation and learning forms through
the use of folk dance as well as the lessons using art music by great composers
give us a very well-rounded experience. I supplement with lessons on playing
chromatic melody bells and djembe drumming as well as conducting simple meters
to various styles of music and also teach in depth one western composer or a
musical style unit of study each year, grades 1-6. We have an after school
chorus program for children in grades 2-6.
Three levels of performance, training, core singers and advanced(ensembles)
which participate in professional association sponsored events/festivals etc.
All choruses perform several times each year in public.
We don't have an instrumental teacher at this time, but we've had strings and
world drumming classes with musicians from our city symphony. Keeping these
subcontracted teachers seems to be a trick....their schedules fluctuate or a
class doesn't make 'big' enough by their set deadline, and they drop our
program. Very frustrating for kids and parents who invest in instruments!
These programs may look nice on paper, but the best way to give good programs
is to have the district put it in the school day and fork out the dough to have
the staff and equipment provided on site.
Our last strings teacher was a Suzuki teacher. There are districts that are
'Kodaly' districts....all music teachers take training to be nationally
certified in Kodaly so that the curriculum is consistently taught from K-12.
I'd like to see some studies on how this impacts the music education of the
students. Anyone know of any of these studies on Kodaly in the U.S.?
Thanks."
---Laura Collins
Hi Laura, thanks for your many comments!
To tell the truth, I've heard about the Kodaly method through the years but not
had a direct experience with it.
Your description is fascinating---the Kodaly Method sounds like an excellent
way to teach music. I'm currently taking voice lessons in order to improve my
skills as a composer and a violinist and am pleasantly surprised to find out
how sophisticated the science and art of singing Classical Music has become.
Concertmaster/President
of Octava Chamber Orchestra
"Adam, I am making it crystal
clear here - I don't care if Weiss has a different opinion than mine or the
rest of the people on this thread. What is wrong, morally wrong, legally wrong
is to pursue someone online with bullying, intimidation, threats, slander and
libel as an advocate of Suzuki. I don't care if the guy thinks Suzuki is a Zen
Buddha who is resurrected from the Samurai Warrior of Imperial Japan (which he
actually refers to in a few of his biographies as his background). But that
does not give anyone the opportunity to harass an individual and threaten their
career. It should be stopped immediately before it escalates further. That is
the peace you speak of that is needed, that is required now. I have every right
to be critical of any method that does not work for my kids and my students.
Period. Just like any parent has, just like any teacher has. My motivations, or
his perception of my motivations is frankly none of his business. I don't want
him inside my head, or within any kind of proximity to me. He is a thug and an
online bully and it is behavior that is sickening. Should not be tolerated.
Rather than Weiss asking everyone here to ruin my career, I would like to ask
everyone here to not ruin his career, but just simply ask him to get another
hobby other than stalking me on the internet. Ask him to just quit talking
about me. He is obsessed with me and it should stop now! Please!"
---Mark O'Connor
Hi Everyone,
I am not bullying Mark. Whenever he runs out of sensible things to say he takes
the tactic of personally attacking someone in an attempt to discredit them as a
person.
I am also not threatening anyone---simply pointing out that it is not good for
one's career or reputation to align oneself with a negative campaign like this.
It leaves a negative impression inside on the level of both feelings and
thought. Then you become associated with it, whether it makes logical sense or
not. That is how us humans are wired.
Professional advertisers are well aware of this phenomenon. That is why
Coca-Cola does not wage campaigns against Pepsi calling it the worst soft drink
on the planet, detrimental to the health and well-being of everyone, and so on.
They focus on the positive, encourage you to make friends, be happy, and so on,
and all the while enjoying a bottle of Coke.
The only market that stoops to the level that we currently are at is politics
and that is for the purpose of getting people to pull a certain level or push a
certain button at the critical moment on Election Day. Sadly it also
contributes to the extreme dysfunction that we have in the Congress of the USA
and other similar forums around the world. So in the end, all of Humanity
suffers because of it.
