Mark O'Connor has
launched yet another unsubstantiated rant targeting the Suzuki method. This
time he goes after John Kendall.
If you would like to know the truth,
please watch this 2006 interview I did with Mr. Kendall. He speaks about his
life as a Quaker, environmentalist and his worries about our children and their
future. Once you watch these videos, you will see how absurd the following
statement is.
From Mr. O'Connor:
"What is John Kendall’s central interest in the Suzuki approach?
Non-individuality - in a free society like in America, is a good idea to
Kendall? The “you do as I say,” mimic every note, memorization ear-training and
constant repetition of music and art - makes a “beautiful heart” in the U.S.?
While Suzuki thought it must have made “noble” and “beautiful hearts” in 1930s
Japan, how could Kendall believe that it made sense in the U.S.? For Japanese
children learning how to conform to an oppressed society, giving up on any
originality or true individuality, finds logic in Imperial Japan, the era that
gave birth to Suzuki’s “talent education,” “mother tongue” and education
“philosophy.” But was his method designed and therefore ever meant for the
West?"
I had been a long time fan of MOC, but because of his recent attacks I will
personally no longer support him in any way, shape or form. I will not purchase
his recordings or music or attend his performances. His recent behavior has no
place in the classical music world. We are a better community than that.
Mark L. Priest • Perhaps
he [erroneously] believes that Suzuki is predominately about creating solo
artists. It is not, and does not claim to be.
The Suzuki Philosophy is more about building musically-literate audiences,
consisting of individuals who are capable of appreciating music from the inside
out (because they themselves have spent some time learning to enjoy playing an
instrument, and reading printed music for themselves).
As a performing musician, he ought to appreciate the importance of having an
understanding audience.
Jean Antrim-Erickson • It is
ABOUT TIME that this Suzuki Bubble was BURST!!!!!, YEAH For you Mark
O"Connor, You have hit the Nail right on the HEAD!!!!
Did any of you ever try to teach a student steeped in this oppressive method??
Well it is next to impossible, as they are never trained ,EYE -To _BRAIN TO
HANDS!!!!!
Ear training is a fine thing, but ROBOT learning doesn't teach anyone to
become
a musician. truly, honestly or CORRECTLY!!!
Jean Antrim-Erickson • The
traditional method ,of learning how to correctly play your chosen instrument,
being taught to read notes and rhythms ear training For flute players that would
be using harmonics correctly), embrochure developement tonal production, ande
all being taught to play in tune ,to your self and to,others, by being
introduced to group playing as well as your private lesson study.
Gary Lee • Hi
Phyllis, thank you so much for posting those interviews. A number of my
colleagues that I perform with in the St. Louis area studied with him and
thought so very, very highly of him. I can't imagine the motivation the Mark
O'Connor accuses. Perhaps someday he'll learn something different and change
his mind.
One of these days I'd love to have the funds to get the Suzuki training in
cello. My income has been cutting off in the summer as my students go away to
camps and vacations so I get no vacation and no teacher training. It's a trend
in the St. Louis area among all the private lesson teachers.
When I took the "Every Child Can" class I agreed with most of what
was taught. If there was anything I disagreed with I don't recall. There is a
lot of good to learn from Suzuki.
William Pruett, D.M. • Fortunately
for me, we pianist/teachers are not so dominated by any one "method"
or philosophy. Although many writers and pedagogues have tried to establish
their methods as the prevalent ones in piano teaching, piano teachers are very
independent thinkers and resist categorization. I did watch some of the
interviews with John Kendall and was glad to hear him say that he did not favor
lableling teachers as "Suzuki teachers" or "not
Suzuki"--that seems like a healthy attitude. I hope many strings teachers
are as open minded as he seems to be.
I also read some of O'Connors blog and was a little disappointed to find out
that he seemingly is hawking his own method books. That's his right to do, but
it makes me wonder about his motivation in his critiques of Suzuki's ideas.
I like the idea that Mark is trying to teach improvisation and American music
of various styles. I haven't seen his method books but wonder if they
incorporate classical repertoire as well. There needs to be a balance of
styles, classical being the bedrock in my opinion, but not the only style.
Mark O'Connor • I
actually agree with all of John's interview really! We are grabbing clips of it
and am going to use it to bolster our message. What I am upset about mostly is
what he did a long time ago, supporting this movement to such an extreme that
he himself didn't test on students before "evangelizing it." He even
says in the filmed interviews in question that Japanese students are far
different than American students - those are his sentiments in the interview.
You have to wonder when you are looking at his interview, what was he thinking
for about three decades!
In my most recent blog "Was the Suzuki Method formulated by a Cult,"
of course the research exonerates Kendall as being in the cult, but it doesn't
exonerate him from being equally fanatic about Suzuki that even he himself
didn't think it was going to work. I talk about a few reasons for the
fanaticism, but it is obvious by his own writing, he acknowledge the Suzuki
"cultism" as "dangerous" in the 1960s and 70s in his book.
Even on this filmed interview in question, he chose the word
"clannish" to describe the Suzuki movement. Well, that is pejorative
when talking about music education - by any definition - especially when it is
coming from him. It is all very interesting, when he talks about Suzuki being
opposite of Waldorf for instance. That is an argument I have had with I don't
know how many Suzuki teachers. Now I don't have to argue it! I am just going to
play them the John Kendall filmed interview here! And loop it! Also, I found it
fascinating at the end, he was really getting into "rhythm" for
learning to play. Wow! He was catching up to my concepts - maybe one of the
reasons why he really liked the O'Connor Method and asked to see copies before
he passed away.
Tami Nelson • I just
went to the Nisswa-Scandanavian fiddle series in Crosslake, MN two weeks ago
and all of the music was learned by rote. Many of the fiddlers in my workshop
were paper trained with new skills in rote learning and only a few learned
strictly by rote. There was a discussion at my workshop concerning sheet music
being used and the fiddlers attending that didn't read music were very vocal
about how this would send them home with a recording to learn at their own
speed. For those of us who are paper-trained it was a blast to read and play
lots of music together that was new. Rote training is slow and reading is fast.
What was missing though was the nuances of the rhythm and this was taught very
specifically in the rote sessions. As a classroom teacher, I am embracing
American music and ear training by rote rhythms and tunes. My fiddle kids have
great performance strength because they love the music and they love to play it
everywhere! My classical kids don't seem to have this strength and I wish they
did. All of my Suzuki kids do and somehow I need to find a way to build this
strength in all of my students. The rote training is extremely beneficial and a
skill we all should have. It is a tough road to learn as an old player, but one
that is well worth it. Thanks for the new method Mark O'Connor. I believe we
should focus on what is great in a method and move forward with it. Adapt to
what works best for yourself and the students and never be afraid to try
something new.
Jessica Madsen • I admit
I do not know much about the Suzuki method, but I have been to Japan, and I
know Japanese teachers that teach the method very successfully to very young
children who are not reading yet. The American alphabet has 26 letters.
Japanese contains something like 2000 kanji symbols. I imagine it takes young
Japanese children much longer to grasp their language, so it seems perfectly
reasonable to teach these children by ear until they are old enough to read and
understand their native tongue. The problem with much of the Suzuki teaching in
the U.S. is that it is followed far after children are able to read, so they
rely far too heavily on playing by ear to the detriment of their sight-reading.
I do not believe this is done in Japan, so it is ridiculous to blame Suzuki for
his method being abused by teachers who don't understand the original purpose,
as a stepping stone to reading music. As with any of the creative arts, the
younger you start, the better your chances for success in training muscles
(including the ear). It is far easier to teach someone who has had a few too
many years of Suzuki to sight-read and count complex rhythms than it is to
teach someone with great technique how to listen. I teach traditional music,
but I refer children under the age of 5 to a Suzuki teacher first, and have had
great success transitioning these kids when they're older and reading. I agree
with William that maybe he's hawking his own materials. Attacking one of the
most successful and widespread teaching methods will probably bring him his 15
minutes of fame. Suzuki will surely outlast, what did you say his name was?
Mark O'Connor • Join me
and my guests Dale Morris Jr. Patrice Jackson, Alex DePue and David Wallace as
we talk about music competition and contests. Is it healthy for kids, does it
make a difference?
In this video clip, there is a lot more going on than meets the eye. Right
before I stepped on stage to perform on this national television show, (one of
the awards for winning the Grand Master Fiddle Championships in 1975), my
mother told me that if things go well, and I get a lot of attention that the
family could move to Nashville without our dad and live on the money that comes
in from music. When i realized that Porter Wagoner's house band was not only
missing chord changes, bass lines, but they decided that loud steel guitar
chimes played through my entire tune and in my range was a good idea, somehow I
saw my young life in music crumble as I played. The fact that I was able to
play this well under that kind of pressure obviously made for one of the top
high-pressure contest players of my era. It somehow worked for me, but are
competitions for everyone. Let's discuss at 4:15 to 5:15 today at the Berklee
Performance Center!
Mark O'Connor • I have
been blogging this last year on the subject of why the violin scene has been
depleted with regards to creativity and nearly 60,000 readers have looked in on
them in total so far. This was one that got a lot of attention. Because the
Suzuki method is by far and away the dominant teaching method over the last 50
years, making for a virtual monopoly in most small and mid sized cities in the
U.S., I lay the problem mostly with Suzuki's methodology and learning
principles because of that obvious fact. But there are other
contributors.
Mark O'Connor • Bruce
Molsky and David Wallace get things kicked off at Club Passim for our nightly
concerts during my Berklee College String Camp Week. Fantastic evening of great
music. The sitting concertmaster of the Boston Symphony was in attendance at
Club Passim tonight! Now that is cool!
Mark O'Connor • Catch my
discussion at the Berklee Performance Center tomorrow at 4:15 when I will talk
about American Classical music with DBR, Tracy Silverman, Darol Anger and
Eugene Friesen
Mark O'Connor • Catch my
discussion at the Berklee Performance Center in about an hour at 4:15 when I
will talk about American Classical music with DBR, Tracy Silverman, Darol Anger
and Eugene Friesen. There is an opening for new ideas and career paths!
Mark O'Connor • When the
O'Connor Method teachers and teacher trainers played this orchestral
arrangement tonight at one of the Berklee Camp performances, I got a little
choked up about the moment. It usually happens at these camps for me, but at
least I make it to Wednesday or Thursday before I have some tears - it happened
Tuesday - Oh My Goodness! So beautiful and heartfelt. I told the teachers
afterwards, that the couple hundred young people at this camp this week are the
lucky ones. They get to discover all of this here around us! Just think about
the tens of thousands who will quit violin this year. Who will never get to
experience something like our camp! You, each one of you can take this back to
your neighborhoods, your communities and bring the kids this magic we have
created with strings, the magic you feel right now.
Myron A. Gilmore, Jr. • I know a
few people that have a problem with the Suzuki method, me, I don't just look at
one method, I look at all of them because there is something to be taken from
each one
Gary Lee • I went
to look for the O'Connor Method book for cello but didn't find it at my local
music store. He also couldn't find it in his database. Oh well, with so many
students taking off for the summer (worse than other years) it's not a good
time to spend money anyway.
charles avsharian • It's
heartbreaking to see and hear musicians openly be critical of each other. As
CEO of Shar, I have each musician, young and old, in mind.....to provide them
with what they want and need. Independent thinking....the Art of exercising
freedom of style in any personal way- that's what we do in America.
I would hope that each person water his/her own garden ....live and let live
without unnecessary and often hurting commentary.
Mark O'Connor • Charles,
it is a beast of a place out there! I certainly don't think that some of these
folks would ever say those things to my face, whereas, everything I write, is
from the standpoint that I would say it in a room full of folks and right to a
person's face. Let's hope for nicer folks in the violin community one
day.
This video that was shot during the O'Connor Method Camp last week in Boston
speaks volumes. I wouldn't be surprised if after this video is watched here a
few times, the author of this thread takes down her personal attack.
Posted just now on YouTube:
How incredibly moving... From last week in Boston. "Mark O'Connor Camp
Field Trip to Bunker Hill"
The music "Bunker Hill" is from the O'Connor Method Orchestra Book
II.
Mark O'Connor • Gary,
here is the site that puts you right to all things O'Connor Method. The links
on the store page go right to Shar Music for the purchase of Cello Book I and
any others there of mine you care to obtain. I recommend Orchestra Book I for
Group Class!
Mark O'Connor • O’Connor
performs both unamplified and with electronic effects so that he can improvise
over the loudest dynamics scored for the orchestra. According to O’Connor, this
piece is not only “brand-new to the orchestral world,” but also in the concerto
world. “In the past 300 years of concerto composition, nothing like this has
ever been written.”
Or would it be more appropriate to say, left unwritten?
Robin Steinfeld • What Ive
found a bit difficult as a teacher is to help my students push past the ideas
of the Suzuki method .Theyre under much pressure by their peers that its the
only/ best way to learn .The subject is visited & revisited each lesson
.whether or not it's a good or bad method isn't the issue anymore .It seems to
have taken on a life of its own ,resulting in my students feeling conflicted ;
hampering their focus .we spend a good 10 -15 minutes weekly discussing this
until their focus is regained .Frustrating to say the least .
Mark O'Connor • Robin,
that comes from the fact that Suzuki is the dominant teaching method in America
for the last 50 years. It is nearly all there is in most mid sized cities and
small cities. It is a shame that we all let it happen. A monopoly, a virtual
monopoly or a monopoly created by peer pressure that you describe, is anti
freedom and anti American. It should have never gotten that out of hand and
that big. Suzuki would be manageable if it occupied 20% of the scene, so there
could be a free flow of other ideas for students and parents to choose from.
But the realization that that it had recently grown to 90% of the scene is
ridiculous. It needs to come down from that point, no matter if you like it or
not - it is not correct to have one way or the highway in music in this
country. The strings have suffered by it, and will continue to suffer by it,
unless there is a correction. I think the correction could come with the
American School of String Playing taking its rightly place. My method is a part
of that school. People will have a hard time turning on our own music once it
is more established in strings. Then the students and parents have choices, and
maybe to your point, will have popular choices. The Ford or the Honda. Those
are good choices to have in this country and it feels like you are in America
when you can make those choices free from ridicule by peers.
Mark L. Priest • If and
when I am asked "what method do you teach" I usually specify
"whatever I think the student needs." I believe in the value of a
somewhat eclectic approach, so I use the materials that I judge to be most
beneficial for the individual student. What does this mean, for me?
Since I have training and experience in Kodaly (as well as Suzuki, and
Kindermusik, to name a few), I often incorporate "moveable do"
solfege into the course of instruction, yet rarely do I promote myself as a
"Kodaly teacher," a "Suzuki teacher," or as a teacher of
anyone else's name method for that matter.
I do start off the very youngest beginners with a modified Suzuki Approach,
applying the "Mother Tongue" concept, the recordings, preview and
review of the book materials, and so forth. This gives them a good foundation
for playing technique, and ear training. Ear training of course can also be
learned by studying jazz theory and transcribing from recordings, but frankly I
don't receive many requests for jazz lessons.
The upper level Suzuki books focus on the traditional repertoire anyway (i.e.,
Bach, Bartok, Beethoven, Mozart), so, why not? This is why from the very first
lesson, knowledgeable teachers who follow the Suzuki Approach are
simultaneously introducing pre-reading theory, and a favorite non-Suzuki method
book series as soon as the students are ready to read the symbols of pitch and
rhythmic notation. (I have my reasons, however, for NOT parroting the Suzuki
lingo by distinguishing the latter as "traditional method books,"
which in Suzuki circles always seems to suggest "second-rate"; to me,
they're simply "non-Suzuki" methods.)
That said, I don't feel bound by anyone's methodology but my own, certainly not
in the case of my advanced and/or transfer students. I think teachers need to
be flexible. I don't subscribe to the one-size-fits-all mind set, because in
the long run, my experience has shown me there is a larger world out there, and
black-and-white thinking is not the road to follow to find it. My long-range
goal with serious students is to guide them to the completion of whatever
series of method books they are following, in order to finally introduce them
to the near-infinite world of advanced repertoire for their instrument.
I do not think it wise, practical, or in the best interests of education to
blindly crusade for any one man's (or woman's) particular ideology, whether the
initial ideas came from Shinichi Suzuki, Zoltan Kodaly, Carl Orff, or another.
Those who wager such crusades are certainly setting themselves up to the
accusation of following a cult (and perhaps the accusation is deserved in at
least some cases).
Mark L. Priest • "what
you are describing is an ad hoc methodology" "you are teaching the
Mark Priest method" "it probably isn't going to be the best, where I
can offer that!," etc.
Mr. Mark O'Connor, when you employ the term "ad hoc" in connection
with my way of teaching, this sounds to me like a put down, as if everything I
do is merely makeshift, unplanned, inadequately thought-out, or improvised on
the spur-of-the-moment. If that was what you intended to imply in your comment,
then I can't disagree more.
I don't find it necessary (or good business practice) to go around proclaiming
to teaching colleagues in my local area that what I offer is "the
best," or even that it is so much better than what they have. Some of us
belong to the local and national music teachers association, and most are not
Suzuki teachers, yet it is not rare that these in turn refer additional
students to me.
Footnote: A number of my students performed at this past spring's Piano Guild
Auditions, some at the National Level, and according to their adjudicator (an
experienced artist-teacher, but NOT a Suzuki teacher), they all performed
excellently. If "the proof of the pudding is in the eating," then this
is an important, if not THE most important point.
Mark O'Connor • Mark L.
Priest, I threw that up there quickly as we were heading out to fireworks, it
had a bunch of typos. Be right back with a corrected version of my note
(above). And I was referring to violin, not piano... I actually complimented
you though... also I don't know your method, so how could I put it down? I was
using you as an example of the many teachers out there trying to put a lesson
plan together - a methodology. If yours works, congratulations. But again, you
are speaking of piano. A more ad hoc approach to piano might be better than it
is for violin, so please keep the context correct for what I was saying here. I
am narrowing my comments to violin education. The last time I checked, the
piano has a very healthy and secure place in American culture. Whereas the
violin is precarious because of the Suzuki era, and it most definitely hangs in
the balance as to what the future holds. I think it is imperative to have an
American School of String Playing. Piano is fine - places like NEC teach Jazz
piano. I was talking specifically strings, so your comments or responses to me
should remain in that area. I did not know you were teaching piano and not
violin. That would have helped for you to add that to your letter so I could
have written you about piano instead. I don't have a method in piano, so it
would have been much shorter.
Mark O'Connor • Mark L.
Priest, what you are describing is an ad hoc methodology. A potpourri of ideas,
experiences, literature and methods... In short, I would trust you better than
I would trust a 100% Suzuki approach. But make no mistake, you are teaching the
"Priest Method." When someone comes to you for a lesson, they are
putting faith in you that you will make all of the right decisions in every
aspect of the lesson plan. Whatever a teacher feels like at that moment, and
whether they want to toss in the whole kitchen sink to their lesson plan, is
probably ill -advised for the majority of teachers. In essence what you are
suggesting is that you are pitting your own experiences as a musician up
against someone like myself who has accomplished quite a bit, and has seen tens
of thousands of students and developed a Method drawing from decades of
experience. I just don't think it is wise, and I would advise any parent or
student against an ad hoc approach by an individual over one that has been
taught already by thousands with lots of results..
The reason why there is Methodology in the first place, is that people like it,
and want it. People feel comfortable that there is research, and that one thing
leads to the next thing, and there are results that are tangible, and there are
examples available of what that success could be. Rather than a teacher just
trusting their own whims with a student. Also there is money involved. Firstly,
parents want to know the product, if it is tested out there in the field, and
in many different situations. While my Method is only 4 years-old, already tens
of thousands of students are taking it with huge success. My string camps have
produced many professionals so the teaching philosophy is sound and parents can
see that. And there is my own career...they can see the result of a Method in
my own music making and output.
The other issue is materials. A method is the culmination of materials that a
student and parent wishes to take home with them after the lesson, not a bunch
of illegal Xerox sheets! If you are expecting your students to buy several
manuals, just to grab a few things out of each, it is certainly very confusing
for the student, not cost effective at all, but it is beyond presumptuous that
nothing is good enough for that teacher to give to a student.
Basically, a student wants to have an idea of the end result. That is a lot of
trust to put into every single individual teacher across the country. So while
you teach 10% of this, 20% of that, 5% of that, 30% of the other...the teacher
across town does 5% of this, 60% of that, 4% of another.... In sum, that is not
going to get it done I believe - there is nothing that string players can latch
onto as groups of people - there should be some standard rep. Otherwise it is
an ad hoc system out there that is not fully researched other than each
person's own limited experience in many, many cases, which as we all know can
vary greatly.
That is why there are methodologies. Manuals that have been thoroughly sussed
out, researched, tested... I used my own String Camps as laboratories to design
my Method - 7,000 students, 7,000 different students have come through my
camps...in addition to the many thousands more that I have met with on my
travels. That is an experience that not many teachers will ever have. That puts
me in a much better situation along with my success as a player to put together
a Method that works, that will have results. When parents put down the money,
they will want to know what they are getting, and my books are complete. There
is no need to supplement. As soon as a teacher feels like they have to
supplement, is when they know their method is not working. That has been
happening with Suzuki especially so.
Mark O'Connor • And to
lighten the mood! It is the 4th of July! Posted earlier on our sites! And
speaking of great pianists! John Jarvis and Matt Rollings, two of Nashville's
best from the 1980s when I was a session player there and recorded this album
with them and a great rhythm section! All my tunes. Have fun!
OK! If you want to party to MOC ha ha ha... ! Put this on. One of our favs! Hot
Tamale! Get Set, Go! ... Happy 4th of July from Mark O'Connor family!
Mark L. Priest • "As
soon as a teacher feels like they have to supplement, is when they know their
method is not working. That has been happening ..."
... when one feels like they have to supplement a discussion with irrelevant
changes of subject, just to "lighten the mood."
Unconvinced, I still disagree, and since well over half of the comments on this
discussion are yours, Mark O'Connor (at last count, over a dozen, not counting
deletions), this also seems to indicate the weakness of your argument, since
you seem compelled to keep "supplementing" and dominating it with
more comments.
I don't feel any need to 'supplement' this discussion with further comments on
my part. - mp
Mark O'Connor • Mark L.
Priest, I was being as thorough as I could for you in answering your question,
and clearing up the typos at the same time. The "supplementation" of
posting the CD link for July 4th celebration is to get to some music in the
conversation as well. I post music and videos in all of my work to describe
musically what is possible in The New American School of String Playing, rather
than only words. Yes I have done that several times here - links to music and
articles. I thought that it was cool to mention the two excellent keyboard
players on the disc, since you are a piano instructor.
Mark O'Connor • I just
wrote this to someone else, but will reprint it here as it goes to the heart of
the issue with Suzuki: Maureen, we definitely don't need Suzuki's philosophy
designed in Imperial Japan - in the 1930s. It is much better to update the
philosophy for learning. It is brutal enough for Baroque music...we don't need
it to ruin American music and everything else. It is a method with a
philosophy. The method is not good and the philosophy is not good. The method
and philosophy of learning that includes mimic-repeat-memorization-rote-non
individuality-non-creative ear training is what we have had in violin for the
last 50 years. In that time, the Suzuki philosophy has yielded less quality
across the board. Nearly no top soloists, player-composers, improvisers, ensemble
leaders, arrangers and nearly no new violin literature. In short, that
"philosophy" is sucking the life out of the violin in classical
music. It is time to move on from Suzuki's method and his philosophy and do
something that will be better for the kids and better for the violin and string
world. The violin over the last 50 years has struggled to maintain relevance in
our life and culture. Suzuki's philosophy of learning has overseen this
downfall. It will only get worse, the more we tie his philosophy to other
music. It was flawed from the beginning because Suzuki himself was not an
expert at music...He created what he thought was good for himself to learn as
an 18 year-old beginner, and applied it to 3 year-olds. This was bad. he called
it Talent Education, teaching himself to be "talented" at 18! It
didn't work for himself as a player and it has had sobering results on the
majority of 3 year-olds - most of them quitting at some point in their
childhood. He in so many words, didn't know what he was doing. He was a product
of marketing in America. There is no great music or musical movement than can
be tied to his teaching. He proved that hundreds of thousands of 3 and 4
year-olds can learn to play the violin, and hundreds of thousands of 8,10 and 12
year-olds can quit the violin. It is not the right fit for America, for music,
and certainly for the health and future of the classical violin.
Mark O'Connor • "Mark
O'Connor's 'The Improvised Violin Concerto' is a innovative way to approach the
musical interaction between soloist and orchestra. It also requires a new set
of skills that will encourage young virtuosos to develop high level
improvisational skills. The string world welcomes this addition to the
repertoire that supports one of our national standards for music education,
improvisation."
-Bob Phillips - President, American String Teachers Association
Mark O'Connor • This
weekend on NPR across the country - Mark O'Connor for an hour!
"Violinist is one of the most versatile fiddlers in music today: He seems
equally at home playing bluegrass, country, jazz and classical. With its roots
in Texas fiddling, O'Connor's music has shaped an entirely American school of
string playing. His approach to teaching violin is considered a rival to the
Suzuki method.
In this episode of Song Travels, O'Connor and host get together to explore
American music — a journey which includes a performance of Fats Waller's
"Ain't Misbehavin'" and O'Connor's elegant arrangements of
traditional American pieces." -National Public Radio
Gary Lee • Do
people here know about Katrina Wreede's "Concerto for Improvising Viola
and Orchestra". It's been around for about ten or more years. Katrina
Wreede is a former member of the Turtle Island String Quartet.
Mark O'Connor • Gary, It
is a piece for small string ensemble. Mine is written for full symphony
orchestra and the entire solo line is improvised, not even any themes given to
the soloist. So literally every note is made up on stage for the entire 40
minute piece by the violin solo. I think it is a direction that is certainly
possible with more training and earlier. Since the violin is known for the
concertos and not the viola, it was very interesting to embark on that turf
with symphony orchestras and the tradition of a violin concert. Certainly there
are many jazz players who could blow over changes with orchestration and have
done so - sax players, pianists...
“Mark O’Connor’s "The Improvised Violin Concerto" is a phenomenon. An
exciting and appealing concerto, with great rhythmic vitality and rich harmonic
sonorities, it is one of a kind. It will prove to be a challenge for any top
classical violinist to ever perform unless the current training for classical
violinists will include more improvisation, arranging, and composition as well
as jazz theory and American styles.”
-Igal Kesselman - Director, Lucy Moses School, Kaufman Center, New York, NY
Mark O'Connor • Mark
O'Connor's motto is that every child can learn to pay the violin in the 21st
century, even if they don't have parents, or a single parent who is working, or
a parent who is handicapped, or a parent on drugs, or in Mr. O'Connor's case, a
parent dying of cancer as his mother was when he was young and an absent father
due to alcoholism. Hear him talk about his pedagogy with show host Michael
Feinstein and listen to him play tunes and pieces from his Book III on NPR
across the country over the holiday weekend! National Public Radio's "Song
Travels"
"Violinist Mark O'Connor is one of the most versatile fiddlers in music
today: He seems equally at home playing bluegrass, country, jazz and classical.
With its roots in Texas fiddling, O'Connor's music has shaped an entirely
American school of string playing. His approach to teaching violin is
considered a rival to the Suzuki method.
In this episode of Song Travels, O'Connor and host Michael Feinstein get
together to explore American music — a journey which includes a performance of
Fats Waller's "Ain't Misbehavin'" and O'Connor's elegant arrangements
of traditional American pieces." -National Public Radio
William Pruett, D.M. • As an
author (see my ABCs of Jazz Piano on the iBookstore:https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/abcs-of-jazz-piano-level-one/id552913067?mt=11 )
and teacher for over a decade, I can confidently say that no method has it all,
no matter how good it is.
I have no direct interest in the argument over string methods since I am a
pianist, but piano teachers have always used their own judgment in choosing
repertoire and other materials for their students. The massive size of the
piano repertoire and the vast array of approaches to the instrument mean that
no book can contain it all.
Mark O'Connor • William,
I agree that piano education is much different than strings and it is obvious
that a more far ranging amount of literature in professional music circles has
been established in academia. The piano's position in our American culture and
in all music environments is considerably more comprehensive. All of these
facts would have to reflect another pedagogical approach, whether it was
causation, or byproduct of such teaching is anyone's guess I suppose. But
strings are in a far, far different place in our culture that piano, therefore
piano pedagogy. That is why I decided to author a string method.
William Pruett, D.M. • Mark,
I agree with you that string education was in dire need of new method books,
like yours. (more in need of it than the piano pedagogy field) I think it's
great to teach kids American music styles too. We must stay relevant musically
and culturally to our current times and society. My books on jazz piano are, I
believe, the only books about jazz piano that are actually designed to teach
kids as well as adults. The one area that I wish had a real comprehensive, and
yet manageable, method book series is classical piano--it seems like too
complicated of a task for any one person.
Mark O'Connor • Thanks
William, yes that is what I have been able to accomplish too with my Method...
is to have something that young students, teens and adults all really enjoy and
can benefit from. With American music, this possibility emerges. With Western
Classical not so much, because those great composers offered little if nothing
in the way of beginning instruction literature. Even those Bach pieces in
Suzuki Violin are not even violin pieces, they are the very few things that
Bach arranged for beginner piano. But as violin pieces, for beginning
especially, they are not organic to the instrument. So yes, a big improvement
in many areas. That was my aim all along, a big improvement beyond the status
quo. Thanks so much!
Carl Todd • Once you
learn how to walk you now have to learn to teach yourself how to dance. Suzuki
gets you to solidly walk - period - you must then take it from there.
Mark O'Connor • Carl, we
really don't need Suzuki to learn how to "solidly" walk on the
violin, just like we don't need it for guitar, or for horn. There is nothing
there that is worth holding on to, if Suzuki is just being considered for early
child development. Research is out and it is strong. It points away from
Suzuki's rote-repetition-memorization-ear training to a much more creative and
holistic approach to music via rhythm, tonality, improvisation and I have
fashioned it all through American music. This is the new foundation that string
playing students must address if there will be a healthy string environment
going forward. The Suzuki era has produced, almost NO top classical soloists,
player-composers, arrangers, improvisers, and ensemble leaders. In short, it
really has failed the violin and related string instruments. We need a much
better start for kids today. That is why I authored the O'Connor Method. More
information is here. Thanks.
Mark O'Connor • 'Mark
O'Connor is a true American genius. He is bringing to our culture our music,
and he's doing it in a way that celebrates both the tradition and beauty of our
heritage with the pedagogy that can teach our string players how to play this
music in a technically sound and healthy way, in addition to the obvious
importance of American string music in the grand historical tradition. He is an
absolutely ground breaking artist and his commitment to defining what American
music is, is absolutely essential to defining what is unique about our culture
and what we need to instill in every American musician who plays a string
instrument. His contributions as an artist, teacher, composer, pedagogue are
incalculable and will be remembered for ages to come in American music.'
Dr. Robert Livingston Aldridge - Composer, Director of Music, Mason Gross
School of the Arts, Rutgers University
Matthew Weiss • In
response to Mark's various arguments against Suzuki, it can all be summed up as
a distorted view of what Suzuki is designed to market his own Mark O'Connor
Violin Method which he claims to be superior. In fact, Mark's books might be
good for fiddling and learning improv, but they have no chance of replacing
Suzuki Method, Barbara Barber's books, or anything similar due to the simple
fact that standard repertoire is absent in Mark's books.
Antonella DiGiulio • Well...
I followed the discussion here. As Suzuki trained piano teacher I think Mark is
right, particularly regarding Suzuki teaching in USA. I do use the Suzuki
Method... adapted...
My students compose their own pieces and play contemporary music from the
beginning on. They start reading really soon... I call that Suzuki method with
European approach,as it is really different what I know and the way I teach
from what I see here around in the States.
It has also not so much to do with the Method itself: it was wonderful to have
such kind of approach after WWII. But it has to do mainly with many other
things that people (corporate interests... "let listen children to that
-awful- recordings every day" kind of things) around the Method did
after.
I taught the Method in 4 different countries and it doesn't work in the same
way everywhere! Probably in Japan it works at best. Besides these
considerations, I love Dr. Suzuki's trust in the unlimited possibilities that
children have at very young age. We should just adapt them to our own time and
culture.
Matthew Weiss • Yes my 3
kids all started in Suzuki and follow an "adapted method" also, using
repertoire from the Barbara Barber Series, Galamian and Carl Fleshc scale
systems, chamber music, standard violin repertoire such as the Bach Solo
Partitas, Mendelssohn Violin Concero, and so on. As far as I am aware, all the
good to excellent "Suzuki" violin teachers use Suzuki as the core starting
point and then augment it with various other materials as suits each individual
student.
That is also how I learned violin and now am learning cello. Such an approach
works great and seems to me to be a no-brainer.
Why Mark O. seems to think that this so-called "ad hoc" approach is
wrong only indicates his own inexperience as an educator, extreme arrogance, or
blatant commercialism.
Mark O'Connor • We are
proud to announce a website that features the rich historical text and stories
behind all of the American Classics repertoire contained in the O'Connor Method
to date (three books). The website concentrates specifically on the classics
and standard repertoire in what we are calling A New American School of String
Playing!
Historical Text Researched and Authored by Mark O'Connor
William Wise • I
haven't read all of this discussion, but I'm going to jump in with what some
will find completely off the wall. I began learning dressage about four years
ago and now feel that the methods used to teach and evaluate progress in
dressage are equally valid to
learning to play the violin. There are things that one must master to play the
violin and
the Suzuki method ignores most of them to get kids to play tunes. I began
learning the
violin at the advanced age of 35 years. I made some progress but stopped for
nearly 30 years to pursue a career in science. I returned to trying to learn
the instrument 15 years ago with a Suzuki teacher. It didn't workout well at
all. I knew and loved interesting and mature music and found my year or more of
learning to play Twinkle, Lightly Row, Song of the Wind, etc. totally
uninspiring. I'm still trying to learn to play. My poor preparation has
challenged the coaches in the music camps I've attended. I apologize to all of
them for being such a challenging student but thank them all for helping me
play some real music. During this past year I decided to begin all over. I've
been playing scales, etudes (Wohlfahrt), trying to learn to read, and maintain
some semblance of a steady rhythm.
It hasn't been fun but I don't what else to do since few teachers know what to
do to bring an adult to a competent playing level to participate in a quartet or
other ensemble.
Matthew Weiss • Suzuki
is a method designed to teach young children music from a very early age, so
it's usually not appropriate to begin as an adult using Suzuki. The reason it
works for me on cello is because I already play violin and much of the
technique can transfer over to cello---except the darn string crossings which
are upside-down and cause me most of my trouble :).
William Wise • Matthew,
I hear you loud and clear. I wish someone had told me that when I returned
to
attempting to play the violin. The first thing one must learn is how to produce
a good sound. If one can't do that, no one will want to listen and if no wants
to listen then what
can one express?
Matthew Weiss • Yes that
is the main reason why violin, viola, cello, etc. are such difficult
instruments to start as an adult. It literally takes years to develop a bow arm
that will give you a chance to produce a beautiful tone. Kids have much more
capacity to endure the scratchy sounds along the way :)
Mark O'Connor • “This
piece goes beyond "novel". It's utterly groundbreaking. We're so used
to the idea of a concerto part being written out for the soloist, but here the
soloist's musicality is tested to the utmost with a totally improvised part. In
fact, without a total reworking of the music education system - the way Mark
has not only advocated but actually put into practice, including an emphasis on
the lost art of improvisation - a concerto like this is totally unplayable by
the vast majority of conservatory grads.”
– Paul Haas (Conductor/Composer, Music Director of the Symphony of Northwest
Arkansas, founder/Artistic Director of Sympho)
Matthew Weiss • Is the
above comment really relevant to this thread? We all know that Mark is
excellent within the genre that he has created for himself, but that does not
in anyway excuse his wanton attacks on the Suzuki Method and the many excellent
teachers, students, and artists who continue to benefit from it.
Antonella DiGiulio • If you
are aware of how to use really the mother tongue approach, you can use the
method with any pieces... in fact for some of my students I use very different
books and not the Suzuki 'books" at all. But I use with them the method...
How can I do that?
Well... it is a method of teaching music in a natural way, developing step by
step an excellent attitude to listen to the own sound and to connecting the
sounds, while improving the own technique (natural use of the body while
playing the instrument).
That's what many teachers (also Suzuki teachers) don't understand. I guess, if
I would teach violin, I could teach Mark O'Connor's books using the Suzuki Method.
Mark O'Connor • 20
Points of Creativity
For The O'Connor Method Book One
(solo violin, viola, cello and orchestra books inclusive)
1 American Song Structures
2 Musical Variation
3 Playing Other Parts Of The Music: (Experiential Variety)
4 Voicing - Counterpoint
5 Textural Variation
6 Rhythmic Feel And Groove
7 Tuning Your Notes To Chords
8 Variety: Keys - Tonalities
9 Theoretical Knowledge
10 American Musical Language - Mother Tongue
11 Many American Styles
12 Music of Different Eras
13 Musical Histories
14 Diversity & American Democracy
15 Find Your Expression
16 Context: Formal And Informal Settings
17 Bridging Solo & Ensemble Repertoire
18 Multi-faceted Mentoring
19 Visual Stimulation (Layout And Mapping)
20 Going Green
Suzuki's "mother tongue" or many of his other philosophies of
teaching is not going to be of much use in the O'Connor "Book I"
because there are several other and more important principles of early music
education and pedagogy employed. For a description of each point, may I refer to
my full essay on 20 Points of Creativity below. Thank you!
Antonella DiGiulio • (well...
that's the way all animals learn: observing, imitating patterns, re-elaborating
the information in the own way,developing new information.If you will ever
write for piano, I will give the book a try for sure... music is music! I don't
train monkeys for sure :D )
Antonella DiGiulio • I also
wonder how do you teach very young children (and with young I mean 2 or 3 years
old) if not showing them HOW: my last child is two and today my older daughter,
who is 12 and Suzuki student since she was 2, played with him with rhythm
cards/ rhythm dance ... She was repeating at home with her brother, what she
saw in one of my preschool music classes. For the whole dinner the little one
was practicing "loo-ong- lo-ong, short short short short,
titititititititi, tiritiritiritirit...etc." on his own with the forks.I
mean... he just turned two and he is not on "formal training". He was
imitating...or not? For sure he had a lot of fun doing that! And he had much
more fun because the whole family was listening to him and we were clapping the
hands evrytime he finished one rhythm (another important point of the Suzuki
method... family support!)
Mark O'Connor • Antonella,
to answer your question about age 2 - that is too young. I actually have a 2
1/2 year old right now! I have a 32nd size for her - but nothing formally -
just fun. Unless she shows a real determination to want to take lessons I might
wait for a couple of years. But still only if she wants to. At 6 or 7, I will
like all kids to learn a musical instrument. Not absolutely necessary before
that. The key is the balance of creativity and technique acquisition.
Creativity is not a talent nor can it be taught, although it can be nurtured.
Conversely, creativity can be greatly diminished in a young child by
technique-only pedagogy. The American School of String Playing offers another
approach.
The wiring of the brain in how a child perceives music, takes place in the
beginning years of musical instruction. At that time, the brain learns to
perceive music as a Creative endeavor or a Technical endeavor. A student’s
creativity on the violin can be drained from them if it is all about technical
acquisition, even while that same child could show high levels of creativity in
other areas and fields of pursuit, ie sciences, business, athletics and even on
another musical instrument.
During the ages of 3 to 8, if a child is not going to learn to be creative with
their music, it may be better to not have any musical instruction until the
child is of a more mature age of 8 or 9 so as to better be equipped at
processing this dynamic on their own.
My string quartet (pictured here), full of Juilliard and Eastman graduates with
master degrees, all have quite a bit in common. All three did not take Suzuki,
they did not start a string instrument until they were nine (9), and they play
the heck out of their instruments, competition winners etc. So...it is not
necessary to start that young, unless the child (not the parent in the case of
the toddler years) but the child wants to. That is the criteria, and should be
the only criteria for those young ages. This is what I advise everyone. The
Suzuki era of signing up every 3-year old (and it is the mother's fault if it
doesn't go right) did not work - and should be thrown by the wayside. It is all
about musical creativity and artistry that will lead string players to the next
chapter in our culture, not producing music technicians with no individuality
or musical ideas. All other instrument groups are passing the strings in
importance in our culture, and this has largely happened during the last 50
years, basically the Suzuki era in string education. (by the way, while my
string quartet members began at nine, I started violin at eleven!
Gary Lee • At age 2
my son was in the Kindermusik program at Community Music School of Webster
University in St. Louis. Actually he started in it at 16 months and it was good
for him. It was age-appropriate group music making and activities with parent
and child in a classroom setting. He went through the entire program until he
graduated at age 5 or 6. Don't know how it is run elsewhere in the country, but
I was very pleased with it here. Near the last year or so of it, I thought he
was interested in cello so I bought a 1/8 size cello made by the Suzuki factory
in Japan (labeled 1/4 size). Afterward I took him to a recital where my cello
students were performing and one of the parents asked him "So what
instrument are you going to play?" His reply was "All of them except
the cello."
Ouch. I sold that cello to a music shop and was delighted a few months later to
see a new student bring it to lessons. I think what happened is there were too
many adults (not his parents) asking if or assuming he was going to play the
cello like his father. I believe a person should play the instrument he
loves--in his case piano.
BTW, one of the members of my string quartet started violin at age 3 in a
Suzuki program (taught by a Kendall student) in the Belleville, IL, area. He
also plays in a band and he's brilliant playing by ear (the absolute pitch
helps). It seems to have worked well for him. I was taught cello without Suzuki
training by traditional teachers whose teachers included Cassado, Rose, and
Piatigorsky. I started cello at age 11 also.
Gary Lee • My wish
is for a progressive cello method book (for private lessons) that includes
various styles of music--classical, jazz, rock, folk, etc. so that kids can
experience all styles of music in their training and learn to appreciate it. In
the school environment, when the cello kids play other styles of music they
don't get to play the melody--playing V - I - V - V - I has its limits.
Wendy Davis • I
started music with piano, which I continued until I left college. I started
violin 2 years after piano, and was taught scales, arpeggios, Kreutzer, various
Caprices and anything that gave dexterity to my left hand and bow arm. Never
did Suzuki, or any other "Method" for that matter...I became involved
in a wonderful Youth orchestra for 8 years and became an excellent sight
reader. I have been playing professionally for over 40 years. PS, has anyone
noticed that O'Connor's First Fiddle Concerto has a passage in it that sounds
like "The Magnificent Seven" theme? Hmmm...:)
The community that A New American School Of String Playing wishes to have for
children is a thriving music community full of sessions, jams, listening to
music, trading licks, sharing ideas, mentoring, putting groups together,
improvising, singing, bands, various instruments, writing tunes and
establishing a story and a life with other people – and yes string orchestra
too, plays a big role. A community in the 21st century must acknowledge
diversity, not only with RACE and CULTURE, but also diversity of IDEAS and of
MUSIC. American music is perfectly suited for the idea of community throughout
the music world.
Antonella DiGiulio • Well...Mark,
I think Dr.Suzuki started his training very late.His recordings are terrible (I
guess after that they will ban me forever from any Suzuki Association around
the world) I also saw a Suzuki "teacher trainer" playing flat in a
concert, and this was not on purpose. I think that the Suzuki main innovation
is 1) to involve the whole family into the music education of the children (and
this can be good but also bad: I had few cases of parents pushing their
children to bcome rich and famous at the age of 3!)and 2) the step by step
teaching... Today this is used to teach almost everything and only if you
really lack on pedagogic skills, you don't know how to teach.
Mark O'Connor • "Hi!
I write this message from Chihuahua Mexico to thank and congratulate him on his
teaching method.
I am a music teacher and I created a children's musical initiation center
called Tamborela and study their methods. Children are very happy learning to
play violin and cello with his compositions. This year we will begin with
conductor material and are eager to begin studying-
Beautiful Skies is a beautiful item and children love playing that song. We'd
love to aisitir to training for teachers and would like to know where I can see
the course information for teachers.
Music education in Mexico is going through an important process and I am glad
that the children of this new century can be inspired by his method.
I send my sincere greetings and all my admiration. With love Yahaira
Meraz"
(And does Yahaira know that we have "Jessie Polka" in the Method Book
III - written in Chihuahua, Mexico? It's true!)
Mark O'Connor • Well,
let's hear Suzuki then on his teaching, playing an ad lib performance here in
this video. The still picture also linked below, makes it obvious that this was
a training session for string teachers! The effort for Suzuki to try to
remember two different phrases of Jingle Bells for his pun, fell flat both
times, not being able to recall the notes from his own memorization-ear
training/mother tongue philosophy that he was so proud of. But while that
approach obviously fails him on these popular phrases he had in his head, he
could not get the notes from his head to the fingers either time of Jingle
Bells! And he stops much like a child has to stop mid phrase each time, when
stumped. He doesn't have the proper ear training that musicians require in
order to play himself out of the hole he dug for himself, either through
creativity, improvisation, ad lib, tune writing, variation, modulation, altered
idea, episodic run etc..., and at the very least, cover up the fact that he
forgot the well-known melody from the very country where he was creating the
pun.
A good musician could fake it - throw in a double stop, a broken arpeggio -
anything - pretend you are a musician! Folks, this is not musicianship or
artistry. We have been led by the wrong guy for the last 50 years, to aid us
into great violin playing through pedagogy in the 20th and 21st century with
these very same learning principles for children. Our string culture really
needs to elevate considerably, rather than going backwards like we have in the
last 50 years, in order for us to compete with the other instrument groups and
stay relevant in America! Suzuki didn't know a thing about American music,
actually this video represents perhaps the totality of his American music
output! Two badly played phrases of Jingle Bells.
(One Suzuki supporter actually wrote to me and said of this video, that Suzuki
routinely made mistakes on purpose, just so the kids could think that he was
human...or something to that effect!" --- mistakes on purpose - for
children!" It is all beyond the pale).
Gary Lee • My
experience regarding playing and teaching, not always does the best performer
make the best teacher. I had an internationally known person who coached my
string quartet when I was in grad school. The only way that person could
explain anything was to play it... and he didn't bother to bring his own
instrument. Each coaching session ended up with one student standing there
while the well-known person played with the quartet.
On the other hand, Dorothy Delay - ever hear of a concert career? But she
trained many very notable violinists. Of course, highly respected as a
teacher.
I have no doubt that Suzuki's playing was far from that of a concert violinist,
but it's his teaching that matters and what people do with his philosophy.
Mark O'Connor • Gary
Lee, and therein lies the problem. As plainly illustrated in the video, Suzuki
is not a creative player or person, therefore his method leaves out creativity
as a principle of learning and an essential element of great teaching. Since he
authored a method (not just simply a teacher) the standard he is held to is
much higher than a single teacher. He authored musical creativity right out of
his methodology. And we have paid the price.
Memorization-Ear Training and Repetition
1. Memorization is not a musical talent.
2. Memorization-Ear Training is not as important of a musical process as it was
thought to be. Proper Ear Training involves the ability to listen and interpret
intervals, chords, rhythm and musical style by using one’s ears, not just one’s
memory.
A Case For A New American School Of String Playing The Trajectory of Violin And
Strings Compared To Other Instruments Over The Last 50 Years
1. Guitar (the guitar has risen to be one of the most popular instruments in
the country)
2. Brass (because of Marching Band and Jazz Bands in schools, they have
overtaken strings in popularity)
3. Percussion (there are more percussion concertos written and performed today
than new cello concertos)
4. Winds (Concert Band has overtaken the symphony orchestra in most high
schools and universities)
5. Keyboards (because of the advent of modern keyboards and synthesizers, their
accessibility to composition and popular music as well as the good number of
classical music soloists, they have pulled ahead of strings in importance)
Matthew Weiss • A nicely
distorted view of what the Suzuki Method was and is...especially your
fabricated notion that the Suzuki Method supposedly caused the loss of the
ability to improvise to a whole generation of string players :)
The reason why most string players cannot improvise these days is simply
because nobody bothered to teach them how to do it.
Gary Lee • Matt
wrote "The reason why most string players cannot improvise these days is
simply because nobody bothered to teach them how to do it." I strongly
agree with this. I was never taught to improvise. My teachers were conservatory
trained. One was a student of Leonard Rose, who was a student of Felix
Salmond... The bowings for Bach cello suites were what his teacher taught him,
from his teacher's teacher, etc. You do exactly the bowings and fingerings as
taught. That was the tradition from one of my teachers. For other pieces I had
more leeway but actually the only style taught on cello was classical. The
change I see that Suzuki brought to traditional teaching is the reduction in
the use of etudes. My British cello teacher said he had over 100 etudes
memorized and I learned a number of them--Duport, Sebastian Lee, etc. I have
more than a foot high stack of etude books.
Mark wrote "3. Percussion (there are more percussion concertos written and
performed today than new cello concertos)". From having worked for a music
publishing company (whose catalog was since bought by Lauren Keiser) I saw a
number of new cello concertos by composers, however, we neglect a personality
flaw. Many string players are very conservative. How many know the new works
coming out? No, they'd rather play Haydn, Dvorak, Saint-Saens, Boccherini, etc.
the same ones everybody else plays. Many of the new cello concertos get
composed and then sit on a shelf somewhere. Meanwhile, percussionists are
excited that someone wrote a new concerto and therefore, when someone like Eric
Ewazen writes a Marimba Concerto you see additional performances.
In fact, several composers I've talked with said why bother writing for string
players when the wind, brass, and percussion players are more likely to play
their works.
We need to change attitudes among string players. That is one thing I hope your
method will aid in doing. I can't blame Suzuki Method for that because I saw it
pervasive in the string culture before anybody around me had anything to do
with Suzuki.
Matthew Weiss • I agree
with Gary in that all that is really needed among string players and teachers
is a positive attitude, interest, and general education in Jazz, Folk, and even
Ethnic (if you want to it that) Music.
Jazz bands have flourished in the public schools for quite a while now, but
somehow the string/orchestra teachers in the same schools for the most part
have not embraced Jazz in the same way as the band teachers have.
Mark O'Connor • Not
quite. Improvisation is creativity. You don't teach a young person how to be
creative, but you can allow it to happen. Thus my "20 Points of
Creativity." The methodology must nurture creativity and Suzuki's does not
(because he didn't know about music and was authoring a music method). The
mimic-memorization-repeat ear-training takes you AWAY from it further than the
traditional classical methods of the 1950s and earlier. On the other hand if
you put too many materials in front of a 6 year-old, they will shut it all
off... that is why the ad hoc kitchen sink method is not good, and that is why
the pedagogy and methodology needed to be fixed basically for strings in the
21st century. And I have done that with the New American School of String
playing in the early books.
Matthew Weiss • If that
is so, than why do the classical musicians of India such as Ravi Shankar, etc.
teach their students in the same way? The student first acquires a basic
knowledge of the instrument and genre by mimicking exactly what the teacher
plays. Only after the student reaches a certain level of maturity is he/she
then encouraged to improvise, create his/her own compositions, etc.
Mark O'Connor • Joel
Smirnoff (President of Cleveland Institute of Music "CIM" and former
member of the Julliard String Quartet) writes:
"Mark, concerning the composer-virtuoso and how it never really developed
in this country and the complications of the 2nd half of the 20th Century and
even the 1st half disenfranchised the person who did both. It is time to
reverse the valuations and, finally, understand that the passionate player whose
subconscious is being put to good use musically is the real visionary of
serious art music. Visionary has to be redefined to be more inclusive of the
subconscious. That is the reality. And the obligation of communicating to an
audience relies heavily upon that subconscious for its consummation.
Everything you did at CIM was significant for our students and faculty and
audience. It was a big moment for me, watching people get an idea of what you
are about and what a strong, clear, humanistic and universal message your music
carries. You may not have realized it, but there were quite a few members of
the Cleveland Orchestra at your Master Class and they were very
interested.
I'm so happy that the violin method is getting its deserved recognition.
It now brings the beginnings of serious violin study to have firm roots on our
shores and in our own musical history...Congratulations! You have more than my
endorsement - more like deep admiration." -Joel Smirnoff
Read the rest of this blog: how VIOLINISTS became LESS creative
Mark O'Connor • Mathew
Weiss, would you please quit stalking me on the internet? Trolling at every
site I show up on to hassle me and get me into a back and forth with you is
despicable behavior and it does not reflect a professional. Please stop
stalking me on the internet. I have asked you to stop repeatedly on other
sites.
Mark O'Connor • Confessions
of a Former Suzuki Teacher by Pamela Wiley
"Confession #1. I don’t miss “Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star.” The
comparative benefits of using “Boil ‘em Cabbage Down” as a first tune are
undeniable – no string crosses, starting in the middle of the hand, small
intervals, simple structure, strong harmonic movement. The kids love it and
find it very easy to learn. Why “Twinkle” then? I think probably the opening
interval of the fifth made the tune appear to be an obvious choice for a first
tune on the violin – getting the first two notes for free. However, the rest of
the piece is problematic on several levels. After forty years of starting
students on “Twinkle” and fours years of starting them on “Cabbage” and
comparing the difference, I am now convinced that using “Boil ‘em Cabbage Down”
with C# as the center of the tune, the center of the hand and the center of the
A Major chord lays a more solid musical and technical foundation from the very
beginning. The tune moves in half and whole steps from and back to C#
establishing the important smaller intervals and the important improvising
concept of upper and lower neighbors. And starting on the A string alone helps
so much with establishing good bow balancing from the very beginning. The fifth
can come later. And it quickly does – beautifully opening up the violin to the
E string in “Beautiful Skies,” the very next tune."
Read the rest of the article here by the lead teacher trainer and editor of the
O'Connor Method, the former director of the Pennsylvania Suzuki Institute and
the current director of the upcoming O'Connor Method Camp in Charleston in two
weeks:
but as I was taught when I was learning typesetting years ago that writing in
all caps should be limited to headlines, titles, and special effects. Reading
all caps for extended periods of time is exhausting for the reader's eyes, and
it certainly is for mine. These days writing in all caps on the internet is
considering shouting. The part that I read makes sense with what I know, but I
had to stop reading. Maybe it's partly my astigmatism and nearsightedness.
Sorry.
If there is a place where the text is written in standard upper/lowercase, I'd
like to read the rest of it.
In the strictly classical world of my teachers there was no improvisation and
very little other than classical music from the period 1700-1900ish. In the
world of my string quartet, the world has changed. A couple of the violinists
are fantastic at improvisation and playing by ear - they do console me by
saying they find it harder to improv the bass line by ear, especially if
someone else is playing a set bass line. My quartet plays classical, jazz, rock
'n roll, etc. - whatever the client wants but usually from printed music.
In talking about my teachers I should say there was an exception with my
British teacher who was also a viola da gamba player. That led me to a love of
early music. He also played on a Beatles album. He was with the BBC Symphony
and one day received a call to go down to a recording studio and record a cello
part. He never met the Beatles, just fit his part into what was already
recorded and collected his check. Very interesting person.
Gary Lee • Every
time my email comes through with a post from this thread it's headed with
"
Mark O'Connor has launched yet another unsubstantiated rant targeting the
Suzuki method. This time he goes after John Kendall." With the direction
the discussion has gone, I think a new thread talking about the advantages of
the Mark O'Connor method would be great.
Antonella DiGiulio • (I also
have trouble reading that article: it's not you, but reading on the screen is
terrible with caps ... read the comments! ;).
Mark O'Connor • All, the
blog that had the technical error of all caps in question is fixed. For some
reason, when that blog got switched over to the new design, the
"headline" font feature was applied to it and turned everything into
"caps." With apologies. It is fixed now! Thank you! http://markoconnorblog.blogspot.com/2013/03/violinists-creativity.html
Gary Lee • Thank
you, Mark. So much better to read now. I'll keep the page open to read
tomorrow--but love the Grappelli video. Gotta call it a night - long day
tomorrow with about 9 hours of cello playing ahead for me tomorrow.
Matthew Weiss • "The
comparative benefits of using “Boil ‘em Cabbage Down” as a first tune are
undeniable – no string crosses, starting in the middle of the hand, small
intervals, simple structure, strong harmonic movement. The kids love it and
find it very easy to learn. Why “Twinkle” then?"
Actually there was a lot of thought put into starting kids on
"Twinkle" in the key of A. Kids first begin with the "Taka Taka
Tak Tak" rhythm on e string because it is the easiest string to sound, and
they don't have to worry about hitting other strings by accident. Once that is
mastered, the child has already built up some confidence in his/her success.
Next, they perform a "see-saw" movement to cross to the A string and
do the "Taka Taka Tak Tak" rhythm on the A string.
Once that is all happening, the child then advances to adding a 1 finger on
E.
After that, they can "see-saw" over to the A string, place all three
fingers, and then "peel the banana" to take off each finger
one-by-one.
In this way, many foundational techniques in both the right and left hand are
mastered in the very first piece a child learns.
In short, the "Twinkel Variations" are excellent for starting kids
and remarkable well thought out and sophisticated---even though most people
take them for granted.
Mark O'Connor • Twinkle
Twinkle Little Star as a starting tune for beginning violin has many problems.
That is why Boil 'em Cabbage Down, the beginning tune in the O'Connor is much,
much better. The issues: Twinkle is too long of a form for kids to master. It
simply takes too long to learn and the music becomes a laborious process right
from the very beginning. By contrast, Cabbage has just one part. The
string-cross is one of the hardest techniques to acquire in the beginning and
Twinkle is saddled with them throughout as Suzuki's first tune. I pick up the
string-cross on my 2nd tune in the lyrical Beautiful Skies where I introduce
the string-cross from open string to open string within the melody. Cabbage
stays on one string throughout the tune - the A string. Spending a lot of time
on the A string in the beginning as I call for on Cabbage, balances the bow arm
and frames the body for proper position. Too much time on the E string in the
beginning can bring in issues of a lower and collapsed bow arm as well as
getting a thin and tinny sound in the child's ear. Cabbages only uses 1/2 of
the A scale, while my 2nd tune Beautiful Skies fully reveals the full A major
scale within its melodic structure.
Cabbage unlike Twinkle, has clear harmonic movement with each note of the tune
to a specific chord. Twinkle's melody meanders around quite a bit and not even
adults are sure what chord each part of the melody is in. Another benefit of
Cabbage is that the tune starts with the tallest finger (the 2nd finger) and
this sets up the hand position and frames the hand on the violin at the
beginning of the tune during the actual set up for the tune. Twinkle starts on
open strings and the hand can be out of shape and frame during the set up and
opening notes and often is. Problematic for young children. There is nothing
like starting "correctly" even for professionals.
Also Cabbage is hoedown - a rhythmic tune. Twinkle is a lyrical tune. But what
are the first variations that children learn in music? Rhythmic variations.
That's right. So it is much more holistic and artistic to apply rhythmic
variations to a rhythmic tune. Yes technically one can apply rhythmic
variations to anything, like Amazing Grace - but why would one want to? There
is no good reason to. That is why rhythmic variations to Twinkle sound
"academic" and rhythmic variations to Cabbage sound more musical
because it is artistically connected to the material. The rhythmic variations
that I feature for beginners are the same types of rhythmic variations I would
play on stage in Cabbage. (Suzuki was not a good musician, he would not have
known this)
Also, the thing that allows Cabbage to be a better beginning tune creatively
than Twinkle is that it allows even beginners to think of music from the
standpoint of improvisation, not just by rote. Cabbage allows for
improvisational ideas to take place much more easily for a beginner. I feature
creativity in my Method, not just learning by
mimicking-rote-repetition-memorization like Suzuki does. I want children to
some ownership of their music.
In addition to that "Boil 'em Cabbage Down" is an American classic,
it is an African American hoedown from 400 years ago, so the history is rich.
The hoedown is attractive to all children out of the box. The hoedown acts as
great inspiration for American Classical music as well as Rock 'n' Roll and Hip
Hop, so the cultural relevance is on full display. It is also a professional
tune and is being played on stage somewhere by pros today I am quite sure. I
loved doing a version with the great trumpeter Wynton Marsalis at a jazz
festival in France. The video of that can be seen right here - linked.
In sum, Cabbage hands down blows Twinkle out of the water as a first tune for
learning violin and strings, and is featured in the New School of American
String Playing! Enjoy!
Matthew Weiss • "The
issues: Twinkle is too long of a form for kids to master. It simply takes too
long to learn and the music becomes a laborious process right from the very
beginning."
Actually that is another one of the features of "Twinkle Twinkle"
that makes it such a great introductory piece.
The A-B-A form is easily presented to the student as a sandwich with the bread,
the peanut butter (or whatever), and then the bread again.
Once again, you are fabricating a notion based on what you want to be true
rather than facts or sound research. Tens of thousands of children have started
out on the Twinkle Variations and progressed through Suzuki Book I with great
success. In the West, this has been happening since the early 1970's and is a
proven fact, backed up by real data.
How many children starting with the O'Connor Method et al have now matured to
be mature, well-rounded musicians?
Jason Van Steenwyk • I like
Mark's method, so far, having read through book 1. I'm not a teacher, so I
can't speak directly to how it goes "in the wild," but I like the
idea of having some very early pieces a child learns be ones he can come and
hear me play in a gig situation, if his parents take him to one of my shows.
That's something I wouldn't get via the Suzuki method, but a youngster would
get to it very quickly if he or she were working through the Suzuki books and
nothing else.
There's no doubt that Mark has influenced many young players who have
themselves grown up to be pros, However, I think the argument has to be
centered on the advantages and disadvantages of Mark's method, vs. Suzuki, vs
the other developed methodologies out there.
The problem with Mark pointing to the successes of those attending his fiddle
camps and other settings where he's been an instructor is selection bias. The
sample that are motivated enough and affluent enough with parents supportive
enough to attend Mark's fiddle camp, or other such events, is a very different
sample from the kids taking violin lessons from their hometown Suzuki
teacher.
I think Mark's method has plenty to recommend it, compared to Suzuki, and can
be defended on its merits alone - though you need a teacher that respects and
understands the nuances of the fiddle repertoire. Nothing's worse than a
classical player who just can't 'swing' because they think they're above being
taught by a player who has worse technique (but a superior feel for this
music!).
If I were to suggest something, perhaps a supplemental book of extra tunes to
reinforce each point, because some of the 'leaps' from one tune to the next
seem a little big.
Lastly, I wouldn't be too worried about 'illegal copies' for students.
Copywrite law has long had a 'fair use' exception covering reproduction for
purely educational reasons, though I don't know if IP precedents narrow it when
reproducing something specifically developed as a teaching methodology. That
is, it's ok to copy an article out of a magazine for educational purposes...
but I don't think you could hide behind 'fair use' for copying an entire
O'Connor book for all your students. Mark might object, too... though selecting
one tune out of a book to teach a particular lesson or technique might hold up.
Yes Mark's books definitely have some good stuff in them---great fiddle tunes,
Americana, some of his own compositions, and they introduce improvisation early
on.
My biggest complaint is that Mark is trying to sell this method as something
that it certainly is not: A replacement for Suzuki and/or other methods
designed to prepare students to become classical violinists, amateur or
pro.
His flawed reasoning is that somehow mastering these fiddle tunes will magically
empower kids to have the ability, understanding, and interest to then turn
around and play Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Vivaldi, and so on, without
ever being exposed to them during their formative years.
Mark O'Connor • Mathew
Weiss, I have asked you to not follow me around on the internet and comment
about me. You have stalked me on the internet and I have asked you to stop
trolling and looking for me on every forum I go to.
Mark O'Connor • Already
tens of thousands of students have learned out of my method. That is just the
solo books alone. My orchestra book track has many more learning. And yes, they
are all starting with Boil 'em Cabbage Down. I have had 7,000 unique
enrollments from my string camp and I am not the only one who did not start
with Twinkle, believe me! My first tune was Cabbage and my technique is
secure.
Twinkle is too long to start with. Children want a sense of accomplishment and
to finally learn Twinkle months later is not a good way to start.
Suzuki's first two books are filled with 3rd rate German folks songs, and 3rd
rate baroque violin pieces. (even the Bach in there is not for violin, but for
piano). So it is just a bad fit, and it does NOT produce players who can play
Brahms or Romantic music let alone modern music. We can do much better in the
American School and prepare kids for both orchestra and for American ensembles.
If anyone says that my method is not preparing kids for orchestra and classical
music is false. I have a whole orchestra track to the Method. That prepares
kids for orchestra! But much better, because I tie the solo and the orchestra
books together with the same literature, artistic as well as technical
acquisition. Basically, with my series, the students will become trained
musicians, unlike Suzuki where he could not hear a chord change nor read very
well. His was a low level method that has hurt the violin culture because it
didn't produce excellence, only mediocre, and it didn't produce great creative
musicians, just mimickers. We want musicians to be professional, and amateur,
but contribute all. No wonder we are in the shape we are in, where strings are
the last things people think about in our musical culture. We have Suzuki at
least in part to thank for that.
Gary Lee • When my
cashflow recovers this fall from so many taking off for the summer, I look
forward to buying the cello book 1 for my private lessons. I'm not thrilled
with teaching Twinkle to beginning adult or older teen students, but I don't
recall the problems described about--maybe because I do preparatory exercises
with the kids and I sometimes supplement with Essential Elements.
On the other hand, my previous efforts to get cello students interested in
fiddle tunes have not been entirely successful. There are certain kids who are
from very musical families who love classical music; a few others were drawn to
the cello because of Apocalyptica. I don't know any of my students drawn to
cello because they love fiddle music. My private kids from one school griped
about a fiddler coming to their school--they had to play fiddle tunes and how
they hated it. I wasn't there so maybe if I had been I would have seen some
clues to why the cello students reacted like that. My best guess is that they
had to play harmony and weren't thrilled with the harmonic line.
I don't know of any great old-time fiddling cellists from yesteryear. We
cellists are lacking in that tradition. In the folk bands I see fiddlers and
upright bass players with guitars, but no cellos. A group I love in the St. Louis
area is Swing DeVille.
My complaint with the first three volumes of Suzuki books is that there are no
pieces composed specifically for cello. Not one. The last piece in book 3 is a
bass viola da gamba piece that many cellists play, but Bach did not write it
for cello. Not until book 4 do we see cello repertoire with the Breval C Major
Sonata.
Because traditional fiddle tunes are originally written for violin, I'll be
curious to see how they are adapted for cello so that it works in the O'Connor
series.
Sometimes I see issues with violin material adapted for cello--for example,
bowings that work for violin may or may not work for cello. Some of my
beginning students are confused by the terms "down bow" and "up
bow" because the down bow is not down on the cello nor is the up bow up on
the cello. When that happens, I've temporarily used the terms I learned from
when I played viola da gamba: pull bow and push bow. Then they aren't confusing
to the student.
The discussion on this board is very useful to me even when parties are
disagreeing with each other.
Jason Van Steenwyk • I had a
young lady come with her cello to an Irish fiddle workshop I teach, yesterday!
Fortunately, I had a heads-up she was coming, so I was able to 'tilt' my lesson
plan more towards the Scottish tradition, where the cello has more of a history
- and I was able to show her a quick clip with Natalie Haas playing with
Alisdair Fraser as an example of how a cello can fit in with a fiddler.
In the learning session afterwards, I got her just droning on the tonic or 5th,
for the most part. Word got back to me she had a great time, but if she keeps
showing up, I'll be on the lookout for some cello settings of well-known tunes
or some interesting parts she can sink her teeth into as she develops
repertoire.
Gary Lee • I have
one that I carry in my teaching bag: "Jigs, Reels & More" for
cello and piano by Edward Huws Jones. It's published by Boosey & Hawkes. It
has English, Irish, and Scots tunes. I'll often play notes from the piano part
on the cello to make it a cello duet with a student. I didn't know of a history
of cello in the Scottish tradition. That's nice to know. I'll have to look for
that clip of Natalie Haas and Alisdair Fraser. Thanks.
Mark O'Connor • It would
be a mistake to call my book filled with fiddle tunes. It is not accurate and
that is what the Suzuki warriors claim about my books so to sabotage them. It
is part of their war plan. To define by Method as a fiddle tune book. It is
simply not accurate. I am not going to list every tune here, but I can tell you
there are many pieces. From Over the Waves a Mexican waltz, to Hava Nagalia to
Simple Gifts to We Shall Overcome to Up the Lazy River and on and on... my
pieces for the method books are in the American Classical vein. So it simply is
a gross mischaracterization of the Method as far as literature to say that it
is all fiddle tunes, perhaps a small percentage! So for Cello, it is not about
teaching cellists fiddle tunes only, it is about teaching them great musical
literature.
Matthew Weiss • "Mathew
Weiss, I have asked you to not follow me around on the internet and comment
about me. You have stalked me on the internet and I have asked you to stop
trolling and looking for me on every forum I go to."
Since when is participating in a LinkedIn discussion "internet
stalking"?
I find it laughable that every time someone takes you to task a on a particular
point that you cannot answer, you resort to a desperate tactic such as this.
Too bad you can't delete people's posts here like you commonly do elsewhere
:)
Mark O'Connor • I have
commented on aspects of Method many times here and answered all of the
questions posed to me. I don't shirk from answering any questions about the
value of music education and American music... but I don't want to be followed
around by Mathew Weiss on forums. He bugs me and I don't like him, it is an
invasion of my cyber space so to speak, and it is ugly that he hunts me down
and gloms on. Please leave me alone. I will gladly answer any questions to
anyone else on this site and have done so!
Matthew Weiss • Whether
we like each other or not is irrelevant---what is important is that people are
free to speak on both sides of this ongoing controversy, free of censorship,
idle legal threats, and so on. I am quite aware of the tactics you use to try
to shut down naysayers and happen to be passionate and stubborn enough not to
simply run away when you resort to them.
My entire family benefits from the Suzuki Method, I grew up on it, took private
lessons from Dr. Suzuki himself, and it happens to be my Mother's life work, so
this is a subject dear to my heart and I will not sit by idly as you continue
to bash it.
Mark O'Connor • Anyone
that calls him Dr. Suzuki is probably a product of the cult aspect of this or
is really misinformed about his education credentials. He does not have a PhD
and should not be called "Dr." in educational circles. Since I have a
honorary doctorate, just like Suzuki, I am going to ask all Suzukites to refer
to me only as Dr. O'Connor. For the rest of you - Mark is fine. And you should
read this:
Christine Kharazian • Dear
Mark,
First of all let me tell you that I admire you as a violinist. When I tell my
students about you, I call you an organic violinist. I attended your first
teacher’s training in Washington DC. I heard later from Pamela, that she felt
that the reaction from the workshop attendees wasn't positive. Well it wasn't
me. I loved it. Since then I tried to use your method as much as I can. I must
say, the fact that the book cost 3 or 4 times more than any other method book,
is a bit of a problem, but I still try.
When I use your book, I ask the students to follow the bowings RELIGIOUSLY. I
think the bowing in Amazing Grace is genius. I think if a young player just
follows it, the song will come alive. I am saying this all to tell you that I
get it. However when I read your rant, I am completely speechless. I think, or
I thought you are great, but I’m afraid that the day a great person, musician
or whoever, forgets to be humble his greatness is gone.
I would like to share with you, how I got to know the Suzuki method. I grew up
in a country where Suzuki method wasn't popular and I haven’t heard of it until
I came to US. I decided to learn more about it, and I read his books: Nurtured
by Love and Ability Development from Age Zero. Have you read them? If you did,
I don’t think you would say what you are saying. He was a great teacher,
because he loved children and he loved music. I see, you are saying he wasn't a
great musician. Maybe he was just ok musician, but as a person that spent a lot
of time in a classroom, I can tell you that being a great teacher is a
completely separate concept from the subject you teach.
The thing is, your method doesn't contradict the Suzuki method at all.
Yes, there is mimicking and repetition. But isn’t it in your method too and in
any other method for young children? Isn’t mimicking the first step to try to
improvise? First you repeat what you hear, then you change it. Let’s remember
that the innovation in Suzuki method is only the fact that you could start
teaching from a much younger age,2 or 3 year old. And he developed games and
activities to help the teachers to do it. Yes there is the common repertoire,
but it was just to develop common language between the string players around
the world. So instead of killing each other they could play violin. Maybe it is
naive, but is it bad?
Now about that repertoire. Yes I always had problems with it myself. I mean, I
worship Bach. How can I explain the kid who is playing Menuet from book 1, why?
And if a beginner is older then 7 or 8, why should he enjoy twinkle
twinkle?
I really don’t get what the fight is about? I think a great Suzuki teacher will
be able to easily adapt their teaching method to your new repertoire. Play the
same games, but with different songs. So let’s leave The Noble Suzuki alone. He
deserves some rest and RESPECT.
I think it’s wonderful that you created FINALLY and American string method.
It’s historical, yet fresh and we all should just embrace it. One of many
things I love about it is that it is free of racial profiling. I feel good to
teach any kid your choice of songs. Just lower the cost of the books, please
:).
And congratulation on your Concerto! A great Idea. THANK YOU!
Wendy Davis • Mark, I
have been playing professionally for over 40 years. Your gig with the former
San Jose Symphony was because I told them all about you. I was, and to some
degree, am still an admirer of yours.
I attended your fiddle camps 3 times; just to get a feel for improv. When I
performed with Duke Ellington in 1969 I felt inadequate in that regard, and was
delighted to find you. As a young student, I had no "Method" to speak
of, just lots of scales, arpeggios, Kreutzer, Schradieck, various concertos and
anything that improved my left hand and bow arm facility. A superb youth
orchestra in CA really piqued my interest. I became an expert sight reader and
a serious musician because of it.
Upon my 3rd visit to one of your camps, I was very excited about your first Violin
Concerto! I loved playing it and was very excited to ask you some questions
about it. The only opportunity to do that was at one class you offered at the
end of my 3rd visit. I have to admit that I was frustrated, because most of the
attendees were 12 and under, and I had some "stuff" to ask that I'd
never been able to ask before because you were never easily available. ( You
seem to be now) At any rate, because you had told a group of us at the first
camp I attended in '97 that you used to watch Westerns as a kid, I asked you
about the similiarity of a section in the first movement of your first VLN.
Concerto to the Magnificent Seven Theme. I was astonished at your response to
me, in front of the class. You rudely accused me of suggesting that you were
plagiarizing!! My immediate thought was, " How ridiculous! Was Dvorak
guilty of plagiarism in his 8th Symphony (formerly 4th) when he utilized the
hometown folk music of the USA?
Your treatment of me and your responses were so rude and uncalled for that I
packed up my 250 year old fiddle man and left, deeply offended. I find it
interesting that someone SO talented would be exhibiting the same insecure
behavior in this forum.
Gary Lee • Jason,
thank you so much for the link about the historic role of the cello in Scottish
and Irish traditional music. It was an interesting article. What was fun to
read, too, was about Peter Milne, who was born in a village where part of my
ancestry originates--Kincardine O'Neill, Aberdeenshire. Small world--I remember
seeing the Milne surname when I was searching through the microfilmed parish
registers. It's nice to see the cello had a bigger role than I ever knew about.
Thanks again.
I happened to think of another book I've used in private lesson teacher but I
think it's more useful when you have several players. It's called
"Fiddlers Philharmonic". I don't carry it regularly in my teaching
bag--there is only so much I can haul at one time.
Mark O'Connor • Christine,
first of all thank for teaching from my Method Books! The cost is not that much
more than any other method. We priced it reasonably. The value: first it includes
my CD, whereas in Suzuki you have to buy it separately. Second, it is in color,
thirdly the book is twice as long (around 80 pages) and a lot more music. One
book will last one year at least. And the covers are rugged so they will hold
up for that child for a year.
Have I read Nurtured by Love? I thought that was a joke at first... It is a
book full of lies and invented stories and relationships. Have you not read my
blog? NBL is constantly referenced in them. Please read, the man is not noble!
Let me know when you read this:
Mark O'Connor • Wendy, I
really have no idea what you are talking about. I have held literally thousand
of classes in my adult life, and you are asking me about a single question that
sounds like I made a joke at... I mean. I have done a lot of classes. It all
can't be bad! It sounds like you were a little over sensitive to the fun!
Wendy Davis • Well...All
I can say is that my (what I thought was an innocuous comment) led to you
forever banning me from your camps. According to you I was, "Not a nice
gal."
??? Never heard that one before you. Maybe you are a little over sensitive to
the "fun."
Matthew Weiss • "It
would be a mistake to call my book filled with fiddle tunes. It is not accurate
and that is what the Suzuki warriors claim about my books so to sabotage them.
It is part of their war plan. To define by Method as a fiddle tune book. It is
simply not accurate. I am not going to list every tune here, but I can tell you
there are many pieces. From Over the Waves a Mexican waltz, to Hava Nagalia to
Simple Gifts to We Shall Overcome to Up the Lazy River and on and on... my
pieces for the method books are in the American Classical vein. So it simply is
a gross mischaracterization of the Method as far as literature to say that it
is all fiddle tunes, perhaps a small percentage! So for Cello, it is not about
teaching cellists fiddle tunes only, it is about teaching them great musical
literature."
---MOC
No one is sabotaging your books. I am simply pointing out that they do not
contain core classical repertoire and therefore it is misleading for you to
continue to market your product as a "complete" method for the
development of classical violinists.
You can attempt to create a new definition of what "classical music"
is, but once again it is smoke and mirrors and designed only to promote your
product.
As far as the Suzuki books being "...filled with 3rd rate German folks
songs, and 3rd rate baroque violin pieces" since when are Bach, Beethoven,
Schumann, Brahms, etc. considered 3rd rate? When you spout off things like
this, it only betrays your complete ignorance of the genre and further proves
that you have no business claiming to be able to teach classical
violinists.
Why not just stick to what you really excel in and leave the rest to those who
really know what that are talking about?
Mark O'Connor • Wendy,
if you demanded too much time in a class setting and robbed the attention away
from the other young students in my class, that would be grounds to have a word
with you. We can't have students, whether they are young or adult taking over
the class with too many questions and too much attention directed towards
them...and you alluded to that here.. that you couldn't get enough attention
with me one on one at my camp, so you used the class to do that. Occasionally
that happens. If you were banned from our camp, maybe there is more to this
story even! But still I don't recall the details of it. If you were a
"problem camper" as my director used, then I don't know. We have
"banned" very few people from coming to our camp and that is out of
7,000 students. It usually never happens.
Mark O'Connor • The
musical pieces that are in the Method Books by Suzuki are not being performed
on stage as professional pieces. I am mostly referring to the first several
books. The final books of his are Mozart etc. That is not a method at that
point, that is just a mimeograph of a Mozart piece, copied over with absolutely
no effort from Suzuki, except to pick up the check for selling the book of a
Mozart piece. Just call it what it is. I too could just copy Paganini Caprices,
Beethoven and Bach pieces and release them as my last final 5 books too... and
there you go... some core classical repertoire. I was specifically talking
about the first three and four books. 3rd rate German folk songs, and 3rd rate
classical pieces, and no one wants to hear them in a professional concert and
no professional players would be caught dead programming them in a concert. -
3rd rate is the description. Other places I have written "2nd rate."
Same meaning.
What I am saying is that the American pieces give any student the techniques
required to play in school orchestra - but so much more like creativity. And in
fact I have an orchestral component to the Method! So it is false to say that
my books don't promote classical playing. I can use American music literature
to make a much more well rounded violin student than Suzuki has.
Suzuki has only succeeded in creating section players for the orchestra. Nearly
no great classical music soloist could ever credit their playing to Suzuki
training. In addition to that, there are nearly no classical player-composers
from Suzuki, no arrangers, no improvisers and no ensemble leaders. Why? Suzuki
created musically illiterate students who don't have any original idea in their
musical brain that is worth hearing. What Suzuki teachers claim to have is a
beautiful heart... but from what I see here from diehard Suzuki enthusiasts, it
is impossible to see much of that either. Suzuki was a system that failed. I
write about in in the John Kendall piece. It was originally designed for
hundreds of music students playing together in those large groups in public
grade schools. That never happened. The fact that it has turned into an
exclusive way to study violin in private studios is a dereliction of our string
culture. And we have paid the price for it. The violin has really dropped in
our culture over the last 50 years in importance and relevance. And Suzuki was
there with 3/4 of that down turn with his methodology.
Mark O'Connor • Every
day, we get letters like this coming in. One today:
Hi Pamela,
I am writing to inquire about any teacher training seminars other than
the NY one for the 2013-2014 school year? I am a violin and fiddle
teacher in the Los Angeles area and have switched most of my students
over to the O'Connor books from the Suzuki or ABC of Violin Books over
the last few years and all the kids (and I!) love them! I think being a
registered
O'Connor method teacher would both benefit me as an educator and be a great
fit
with my teaching philosophies and style. Please let me know about any
upcoming training seminars or if there are any teacher trainers in the
Southern California area who I could do a private training session with.
Matthew Weiss • "What
I am saying is that the American pieces give any student the techniques
required to play in school orchestra - but so much more like creativity. And in
fact I have an orchestral component to the Method! So it is false to say that
my books don't promote classical playing. I can use American music literature
to make a much more well rounded violin student than Suzuki has."
There is nothing "well-rounded" about graduating students from your
method whom have never played any Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumman, Vivaldi,
Corelli, Brahms, and so on and then pretending that they have what it takes to
play classical music.
Any method books that claim to teach children classical violin and exclude the
above composers are woefully incomplete and anyone claiming that they are not
is living in a fantasy world.
This is obvious to any educator, but unfortunately not to many parents of young
children interested in music.
Mark O'Connor • I would
like Mathew Weiss to cease from writing to me here. How can we make that
happen. I have asked him several times here and several times in other forums
to stop following me around the internet. Can he get it through the thick skull
that I don't want him communicating to me. I have already said here that Brahms
is not picked up in Suzuki and neither is Beethoven. There are probably about 5
people I know of, and I have known thousands of Suzuki students, who got
through all 10 of those books. This is a non issue Beethoven and Brahms are not
Suzuki rep. A student will have just a good a chance knowing how to play Brahms
launching out of the O'Connor Method books as the Suzuki book. I know it first
hand, my girl friend is a Suzuki students and now a classical professional.
Suzuki does not prepare you for the romantic literature, so it is false what
Weiss says. It i just ignorance masked by sabotage. I am want a better player
than just the core status quo that we already have too much of. All these
players that know Schumman, but can't play anyplace. No wonder the violin has
eroded in our culture! Guidance from guys like this. Next.
Mark O'Connor • I would
not like to thank anybody that says publicly, that they would never listen to
my recordings ever again. For me that is not good obviously. And yes, I was
friends with Isaac Stern. Was at his house many times. I was with him when he
taught a 15 year-old Hilary Hahn a lesson. He was great and he did not like
Suzuki - at all. He really liked what I represented though.
Mark O'Connor • Isaac
Stern, my friend did a lot of heavy lifting in his time. His medium was not the
internet, but it was for instance who he would give Carnegie Hall to for a
concert perhaps etc. A story that is not well known - I used to play a lot with
Nadja Salerno Sonnenberg, one of the great violinists of our generation. She
recorded and performed my Double Violin Concerto with me. Performed it 35
times. Isaac kept her from ever appearing at the Carnegie Hall for nearly 20
years, because they had some off words when she was 18. So.... it is not always
what it appears as they say. Luckily all of the older tier of great players
seemed to really like me, and that means I have done something right in my
life! I will take that. If I had a choice of Isaac Stern loving my music and
playing and some of these guys posting here from Suzuki, of course I would take
Isaac every day. Thanks!
Matthew Weiss • "This
is a non issue Beethoven and Brahms are not Suzuki rep. A student will have
just a good a chance knowing how to play Brahms launching out of the O'Connor
Method books as the Suzuki book."
Mark, once again, you do not know what you are talking about :)
Suzuki Book II contains a beautiful waltz by Brahms, and a well-known minuet
and trio by Beethoven!
These are beautiful pieces by master German composers that are introduced to
children early on in the method to challenge them both technically and musically
so that they can develop a life-long affinity for deeply moving music, born
from the souls of history's greatest composers and that easily touches the
souls of children and mature artists alike.
Another wonderful piece in Suzuki Book II is an arrangement of Schumann's
"Two Grenadiers". I can still remember how much I loved playing that
piece as a 6 year old. Even at that age, I could relate to the drama of the two
soldiers talking about their woes, and even though I didn't know the whole
story, I could instinctively feel the powerful emotions communicated through
this classic piece.
This is one of the things that makes the Suzuki Method so wonderful---Dr.
Suzuki introduces such great and emotionally powerful repertoire to children at
such an early age. They don't need to hear lectures about it, they simply hear
it and play it and are inspired by the genius of the composers who wrote
them.
Mark O'Connor • The
backstabbing by teachers to myself for speaking the truth about what is going
on in the string scene is pretty idiotic. You all know better than to go after
a colleague when that colleague is doing something good for music and strings
in America. It is petty. Rather, what it really is about is this: the kids.
That is what this threads should be about. An all Suzuki approach is not going
to make the 21st century player, neither is the all Mozart approach or the all
Brahms approach. A matter of fact, for the first time in violin history, I can
definitively say that it will hold you back from a life in music if you take
those approaches. I just met a really good musician here at this festival (not
a string player) who has a life full of music, really talented, can play most
anything, write music, improvise, lead ensembles, ready music, many styles,
play in any setting. His grown daughter followed the all Mozart, all classical
violin path that was set out for her on violin. She is very good! But today she
rarely gets it out of the case, and is a full time nurse. This is the
trajectory that most of these Suzuki music teachers want for their students.
Even if they become very good like this young woman I speak of. It is well, a
musical travesty. There is nothing much for her to share, or to enjoy, and she
is probably a better violinist than most of you chiming in here propping up
Suzuki Method.
"My 10 year old daughter has been playing with the O'Connor Method for the
last 3 years and she LOVES it. We have seen you perform, too, which was a very
special treat for us. When I first heard about your series I told my daughter's
instructor and our local music store owners. The instructor liked the books and
songs so much that almost all of his students are using your method now. Thank
you for changing so many lives for the better!"
Mark O'Connor • And
Matthew Weiss - one or two small little tunes by Beethoven, music that no
professionals perform on stage, does not teach someone to play Beethoven! The
power of Beethoven is in his great works, not a little tune. I have a tune
written by Beethoven - a fiddle tune in fact in my book IV. I am going too add
a piece or two in my books by some of the classical greats too but I am not
bothering with there substandard rep. I stand by my original answer. Suzuki is
not about Beethoven. He couldn't play Beethoven and he couldn't teach Beethoven
and he certainly does not add anything pedagogically to Beethoven so he
couldn't author anything that helps anyone play Beethoven. And I asked you to
quit writing me here. I am tired of you pursuing me with all your nonsense. It
is stupid, please leave me alone.
Antonella DiGiulio • Suzuki's
books don't have any romantic or contemporary pieces, with few exceptions
(Schumann- adapted,in some piano books or the new added Bartok pieces. For
violin there are really ONLY very few romantic pieces... in book 2 and they are
also not original). But as a pianist I have always to add other compositions
for my students. (Chopin, Liszt, Brahms-original, Russian and French
composers). In the violin books, what my children used now until book 7, there
are a lot of "adapted" pieces. I don't know what kind of edition
Suzuki was using, but I always look at the original one and that's not what my
own children are playing.
As a teacher,I stop using the books as "prescribed" after book 1
(three Bach's Minuets in a row and I have lost my students for ever), but I was
actually thinking too about doing my own "selection" of pieces. I had
few students who refused to play "Honeybee" or "London
Bridge" and couldn't play that at all, but were able to play easily and
with fun some Kabalewsky pieces having similar teaching points but much more
challenging. As I said before, there are a lot of Suzuki teachers out there
that are not able to play what they are teaching after a certain point (mostly
book 5).
There are good and bad things in the Suzuki Method and after years of teaching
I have learned to take advantage of the good things and avoid the bad
ones.
My Suzuki piano teacher trainer in Europe (she is "out of the box"
and I guess if she wouln't be 85, she would publish and teach her own method),
who was a famous pianist and studied with the best pianists around in
Switzerland after WWII always said how she hated this "unisono"
playing for the strings, there was no reason for that. In fact she used for her
piano students 4hands, six hands and chamber music pieces instead of the group
lessons (and she did her own wonderful recordings for Suzuki piano book 1 and
book 2, what the Suzuki Association promptly censored/ignored- have not
approved ). Since that point it was clear for me that there were a lot of
"business interests" behind the whole story.
And I don't like when people put the own business/money interests before the
interests of the children.
Mark O'Connor • Antonella
DiGiulio, I could not have said it better:
"Suzuki's books don't have any romantic or contemporary pieces, with few
exceptions (Schumann- adapted,in some piano books or the new added Bartok
pieces. For violin there are really ONLY very few romantic pieces... in book 2
and they are also not original)...in the violin books, what my children used
now until book 7, there are a lot of "adapted" pieces. I don't know
what kind of edition Suzuki was using, but I always look at the original one
and that's not what my own children are playing...As a teacher,I stop using the
books as "prescribed" after book 1 (three Bach's Minuets in a row and
I have lost my students for ever)"
These are the facts on the ground. Adding a melody by a romantic composer to a
method book without any proper context to the music, let alone great version of
it as described perfectly by Antonella, is not learning the music or that
style! It is just more lies from the Suzuki teachers to keep a hold of what is
slipping away from them... and that is the American music scene. Rather than
being so vocal in public about their dislike of everything else other than
Suzuki, my advice is to start tucking in the tail and get ready for some
transition time. They have to ask if they want to be part of the string
environment in any significant way in their community or not!
Matthew Weiss • As far
as "adapting for the 21st Century" all the best Suzuki teachers I
know here in the greater Seattle area incorporate extra repertoire into their
teaching, including jazz, fiddle, folk, 20th century composers such as Bartok,
Ravel, even Shostakovich, chamber music, scale systems, various etude books,
and so on. This is all given to the advanced students once they have a good
foundation in place.
It is what sensible people do---they draw from a number of
traditions/methods/etc.
What I'm advocating is exactly this approach: using Suzuki or a similar
classical method as the core material and the foundation and then augment it as
fits the student's needs.
If they want to learn fiddling/Americana etc. then can also draw from Mark's
books or other material that is out there---it's all good stuff if used
appropriately.
What I am absolutely against is Mark's all-or-nothing approach and his constant
attacks on the Suzuki Method for the sole purpose of promoting his own, which
at best represents a sub-genre within what is generally considered
"Classical Music", and at worst is really fiddling and folk music
(which are all fine as long as you are not deceived into thinking that they are
classical).
Mark O'Connor • What
Matthew Weiss is saying of Suzuki having to "supplement" their method
has been happening for 50 years! Fifty years! He mentions it like---hey, I have
a new idea!
For the last 40 years, I personally know of Suzuki teachers supplementing
fiddle music. IT HAS NOT WORKED! Fiddling is suffering for it, and so is
classical music. The Suzuki system is a bad method. It does not only promote
creativity, it sucks it dry, so that even fiddling is now robotic. For the
first time in fiddling history, there are rote-repetition-memorization-ear
trained fiddlers who are entering fiddle contests and winning on rote
renditions that are played exactly the same way as each other, because there
are no authentic fiddlers who compete with them nor who care to much anymore.
These robot fiddlers are being called "fiddlebots" by the old-time
fiddle community (I am not responsible for that name) It came around as early
as the late 1980s. They are fiddlers who have a little of a chance at getting a
job playing in a band full time because they lack creativity and and can't
improvise or lead a band etc. They have as little of a chance at the profession
of music as a Suzuki classical students getting into an orchestra full time.
Mark O'Connor • Jean, I
have asked Mathew Weiss to stop writing me repeatedly here. What can one do. I
would like the adm to remove him, so it can be opened up to more people. But he
won't quit with his personal insults, libel and slander of me and my materials.
It is not good, not for anybody to do that to a living person who makes their
living with their music and educational materials. I have every legal right to
be critical of Suzuki, who is deceased, and a corporation that sells his books
because they are not protected the same way an individual who works for their
livelihood is protected.
Matthew Weiss • Here we
go again---every time someone offers a viewpoint outside of Mark's
fantasy-world he starts talking about slander, libel, lawsuits, and so on...
Wendy Davis • I think
it's called Narcissism? I personally find the different viewpoints quite
interesting! I'd hate to see anyone censored, as everything I've read here is
intelligently written although passionate.
Mark O'Connor • It is
what it is. You cannot repeatedly slander in public someone's work for the
purposes of hurting their reputation. That is why there is a definition of
slander and libel. If you don't understand what it means, print the definition
here! There is no censorship, but people have the right to work in this country
free from slander. When people here say repeatedly that I an not qualified for
some reason or another... it is simply libel and slander. What else could libel
and slander is possibly be? I Wendy Davis, had a string music camp, and I can
on here to run it down and criticize it constantly, repeatedly... that should
not be tolerated by anyone here.
Mark O'Connor • I will
save the trouble of looking it up. For instance this is in fact a lie:
"What I am absolutely against is Mark's all-or-nothing approach" That
is false. "Mark, once again, you do not know what you are talking
about" once again, I am an expert in the field of string pedagogy. It is
the repeating of his lies about me over and over again on the internet in the
last year that is cause for concern. That is not what the O'Connor Method
represents or is about and it is an effort to hurt my reputation only. And
there are many more examples by him above. Let me know if you have any
questions. I have asked him to stop his verbal and written attacks on me
repeatedly. He is bullying me here, the intimidation of one person by anybody
should not be allowed in society - let alone on an educational forum. This guy
represents Suzuki? Really? So this is the "good citizen" and
"beautiful heart" he learned from "Dr." Suzuki? It is
pathetic.
libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast
through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm
to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into
ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or
broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral
defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a
newspaper, magazine or political organization) open to a lawsuit for damages by
the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication
need only be to one person, but it must be a statement which claims to be fact,
and is not clearly identified as an opinion. While it is sometimes said that
the person making the libelous statement must have been intentional and
malicious, actually it need only be obvious that the statement would do harm
and is untrue. Proof of malice, however, does allow a party defamed to sue for
"general damages" for damage to reputation, while an inadvertent
libel limits the damages to actual harm (such as loss of business) called
"special damages." "Libel per se" involves statements so
vicious that malice is assumed and does not require a proof of intent to get an
award of general damages. Libel against the reputation of a person who has died
will allow surviving members of the family to bring an action for damages. Most
states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published
retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a
lawsuit. Governmental bodies are supposedly immune for actions for libel on the
basis that there could be no intent by a non-personal entity, and further,
public records are exempt from claims of libel. However, there is at least one
known case in which there was a financial settlement as well as a published
correction when a state government newsletter incorrectly stated that a dentist
had been disciplined for illegal conduct. The rules covering libel against a
"public figure" (particularly a political or governmental person) are
special, based on U. S. Supreme Court decisions. The key is that to uphold the
right to express opinions or fair comment on public figures, the libel must be
malicious to constitute grounds for a lawsuit for damages. Minor errors in
reporting are not libel, such as saying Mrs. Jones was 55 when she was only 48,
or getting an address or title incorrect. 2) v. to broadcast or publish a
written defamatory statement.
Mark O'Connor • Caroline,
I do think people have learned some things from my info I have posted. But when
you have Suzuki teachers insulting people on this forum at the top of the
thread and here again over and over... it is idiocy. It should have no place in
this environment. But despite it all, there have been several people who have
learned some things here from my posts, because I have heard from some through
email about my Method, and of course that is great news. Thanks.
Christine Kharazian • Caroline
is right. Stop! Why you so angry :)?
I read your blog, Mark, and have something to say. But I have to run. But
really some ZEN meditation wouldn't hurt. Or Western chill pill? Whichever you
prefer.
Oh Caroline,
when you are in DC, come have tea with me.
Oh, it rhymes, maybe I should join poets group ?!
Matthew Weiss • "It
is what it is. You cannot repeatedly slander in public someone's work for the
purposes of hurting their reputation. That is why there is a definition of
slander and libel. If you don't understand what it means, print the definition
here! There is no censorship, but people have the right to work in this country
free from slander. When people here say repeatedly that I an not qualified for
some reason or another... it is simply libel and slander. What else could libel
and slander is possibly be? I Wendy Davis, had a string music camp, and I can
on here to run it down and criticize it constantly, repeatedly... that should
not be tolerated by anyone here."
---MOC
Actually, I have already taken this up with my lawyer about a month ago, shown
him screenshots of similar threads, and so on.
Frankly, he is encouraging me to file a lawsuit against Mark O'Connor, which I
assume would be a class action suit of some sort. I haven't seriously
considered it yet because I would much rather spend my time playing music,
composing, and organizing local concerts rather than deal with a bunch of
lawyers over something that has grown to such ridiculous proportions that it
will eventually self-destruct once enough people become aware of what is going
on.
Mark O'Connor • Mathew
Weiss, would you just leave me alone. I basically don't know who you are, or
your teaching. But you know who I am and you have repeatedly come after me with
insults, and discrediting my work. I am a public figure and you are not, so
libel protects me in this case. Once again here is what libel means. Basically
I have asked you to stop, I have asked you to stop numerous times. If you keep
it up, I might have my attorney contact you. I don't want to do that, but it is
your call at this point.
Libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast
through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm
to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into
ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or
broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral
defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a
newspaper, magazine or political organization) open to a lawsuit for damages by
the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication
need only be to one person, but it must be a statement which claims to be fact,
and is not clearly identified as an opinion. While it is sometimes said that
the person making the libelous statement must have been intentional and
malicious, actually it need only be obvious that the statement would do harm
and is untrue. Proof of malice, however, does allow a party defamed to sue for
"general damages" for damage to reputation, while an inadvertent
libel limits the damages to actual harm (such as loss of business) called
"special damages." "Libel per se" involves statements so
vicious that malice is assumed and does not require a proof of intent to get an
award of general damages. Libel against the reputation of a person who has died
will allow surviving members of the family to bring an action for damages. Most
states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published
retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a
lawsuit. Governmental bodies are supposedly immune for actions for libel on the
basis that there could be no intent by a non-personal entity, and further,
public records are exempt from claims of libel. However, there is at least one
known case in which there was a financial settlement as well as a published
correction when a state government newsletter incorrectly stated that a dentist
had been disciplined for illegal conduct. The rules covering libel against a
"public figure" (particularly a political or governmental person) are
special, based on U. S. Supreme Court decisions. The key is that to uphold the
right to express opinions or fair comment on public figures, the libel must be
malicious to constitute grounds for a lawsuit for damages. Minor errors in
reporting are not libel, such as saying Mrs. Jones was 55 when she was only 48,
or getting an address or title incorrect. 2) v. to broadcast or publish a
written defamatory statement.
Mark O'Connor • "Mark
O'Connor's 'The Improvised Violin Concerto' is a innovative way to approach the
musical interaction between soloist and orchestra. It also requires a new set
of skills that will encourage young virtuosos to develop high level
improvisational skills. The string world welcomes this addition to the repertoire
that supports one of our national standards for music education,
improvisation."
-Bob Phillips - President, American String Teachers Association
Gary Lee • Mark, if
it's any consolation, what other people say about you matters less to me than
what you say about yourself and how you respond. People say all sorts of stuff
but it doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
I appreciate all the opinions regardless whether I agree with them. Those of us
with any brains can read through the lines what is valid and what is garbage.
Don't waste your time. Please don't say anything that would backfire - turning
off those of us interested in your new materials coming out.
One of my frustrations with Suzuki is that I can't afford the teacher training.
My income hangs by a shoestring and the Suzuki cello training is not available
locally so I'd have to go out of town, lose income from lessons and gigs, pay
for lodging and food, pay for training, all while bills keep coming in at home.
Any other method also demanding teacher training would create the same
frustrations. In my area the days of having hoards of eager students coming to
one's door are over. People who used to have 70 students are now at numbers
half that, or less.
Mark O'Connor • I reread
a post that I wrote, where I made some typos as I was dashing off for a
rehearsal. I'll re print it here so that it is more legible:
"It is what it is. You cannot repeatedly slander in public, someone's work
for the purposes of hurting their reputation. That is why there is a definition
of slander and libel. If you don't understand what it means, print the
definition here! There is no censorship necessary, but people have the right to
work in this country free from slander. When people here say repeatedly, that I
an not qualified for some reason or another... it is simply libel and slander.
What else could libel and slander possibly mean? If Wendy Davis, had a string
music camp, and I came on here to run it down and criticize it constantly and
repeatedly... that should not be tolerated by anyone here."
I hope that clears that up. Sorry for the typos. During that one I was doing
several things at once.
Mark O'Connor • "In
my area the days of having hoards of eager students coming to one's door are
over. People who used to have 70 students are now at numbers half that, or
less." - Gary
Well, this is part of the reality check folks. Half the numbers of Suzuki
students coming to studios and knocking on the door for lessons is what Gary is
saying. There are also going to be increasing numbers of teachers as well
looking for jobs, players who wanted to get an orchestra job that can't win the
necessary audition. Some very good players at that.
That is why Suzuki does not have the answers. It is an antiquated system that
didn't work very well in the first place, and certainly does not work well now.
So many kids are quitting - right and left.
I was just played with a youth orchestra and the president and member of the
board's kids were quitting Suzuki violin lessons at 9, 13, and 16. Wishing to
play guitar or just quit music all together.
So that is where the American School of String Playing comes in and rescues the
day as I see it taking place. While Suzuki enrollment is crumbling, our numbers
are up. Our South Carolina O'Connor Method Camp in two weeks is sold out! 150
students. Cap. It is sold out. They are only make some extra room for any last
minute teachers for teacher training.
Mark O'Connor • Wendy, I
don't have narcissism as you say, or I would not have such a good career in
music and music business. That should be obvious. For Christine I don't have
anger, or once again I wouldn't have such a great career in music. And Caroline
I don't have an unusual amount of ego at least, or I wouldn't be able to work
with all of the musicians I do in my career constantly. So, I hope that clears
it up for you all, and we can get back to content rather than you calling
people names and insulting them! I think that would be nice. Use that
"beautiful heart" stuff that you learned from Suzuki or something.
But find away to engage but not insult someone directly with names. Thanks. I
am complete entitled to talk about my materials, talk about the great points of
them, as well as talk about why they are better than the competition without
insults, name-calling, slander and libel from Suzuki teachers here. I still
that that is possible. But if you are in the Suzuki cult - who in the heck
knows for sure!
Gary Lee • Regarding
my statement: "In my area the days of having hoards of eager students
coming to one's door are over. People who used to have 70 students are now at
numbers half that, or less."
I hear this from non-Suzuki teachers including percussion and piano. The
reality check is that there has been a shift in attitude in the culture.
Students are being piled on with homework and they being kept busy with
supplemental training in non-music activities as well as sports. I have kids
who want to practice but don't have enough time. An example, the ones doing
gymnastics end up having to either quit music and do the gymnastics or quit the
gymnastics and do music and other activities because of the huge time demands
made by gyms. Orchestra teachers also tell me about the parents who think their
kids are doing fine in school orchestra class and therefore don't need lessons.
If we make Suzuki the scapegoat for everything that is happening, then we are going
to encounter a rude reality check someday. I'm speaking from the trenches with
a range of students, not someone working exclusively with the cream of the
crop.
Mark O'Connor • Gary, no
I agree. Since Suzuki has 80% of the market in beginning violin students - it
goes without saying where the problem is. Self evident. But enrollment is up
for O'Connor Method students by huge amounts this year. So I want to make that
clear distinction. Thanks.
Mark O'Connor • Caroline,
in agreement - this very thread here on this forum, was created as an attack
against me to protect their Suzuki stronghold. It is obvious to me, and should
be to all. As an author of new materials, there is no one better than myself to
get out there and explain what I am doing with the American System of music,
The New School of American String Playing and the O'Connor Method. It is a
shame in a civilized society that I have to try to do that through sticks and
stones with personal attacks on my character flung at me while I tell people
why mine is good and the other is not good. This verbal attacking they are
doing is no different than an individual being targeted online and bullied by a
group, but in this case it is the Suzuki diehards (the ones with the
"beautiful hearts" as the say).
I have had to put up with this assault since the day I released my books four
years ago. The first two years I turned the other cheek, and now I have decided
to speak out about it. Maybe they knew that this time, there was going to be
serious competition, enough for this person here to start a whole thread of
hate speech, and another guy on this thread contacting a lawyer for a class
action law suit to stop my Method's momentum, both of these people in very deep
with the Suzuki Method and the SAA. Yes, is it not really pathetic, that a
corporation and its surrogates would try to shut down an individual with a good
idea? It is simply anti-freedom. But you know what? It also tells you that they
have something to worry about. Clearly they believe that or they wouldn't
bother with it, would they? True colors are showing over there, the "good
citizens" they call themselves? People know, and not everyone is a sucker
for what they are pulling. I for one would like to move on and have them quit
their personal insults.
Matthew Weiss • "Caroline,
in agreement - this very thread here on this forum, was created as an attack
against me to protect their Suzuki stronghold. It is obvious to me, and should
be to all. As an author of new materials, there is no one better than myself to
get out there and explain what I am doing with the American System of music,
The New School of American String Playing and the O'Connor Method. It is a
shame in a civilized society that I have to try to do that through sticks and
stones with personal attacks on my character flung at me while I tell people
why mine is good and the other is not good. This verbal attacking they are
doing is no different than an individual being targeted online and bullied by a
group, but in this case it is the Suzuki diehards (the ones with the
"beautiful hearts" as the say). "
---MOC
The only reason so many people, including me, are so impassioned is because of
the completely offensive, inappropriate, and frankly asinine approach that you
are taking in marketing you method books.
For what they are, as I have said many times, the books are good (though last I
checked the first one is price too high by a factor of 2x or 3x).
If I were a high school music teacher assigning grades to a student's senior
project, here is what I'd give you for your work:
teaching Fiddling, Folk, Americana et al: A
teaching Classical Music: C-
Promoting Your Product F
Mark O'Connor • Who lets
this guy in? (Mathew Weiss) can anybody ask this insult to leave please? I have
asked him to 50 times to leave me alone. Can you imagine this guy grading my
books, and never having taught out of them? It is just crazy! And he is in the
Suzuki Association? This is the representation they want out on-line? Whew.
They couldn't come down faster in my opinion.
I sit here and shutter at the thought of the two Suzuki teachers that my own
kids in my family had. Very similar predisposition to anything outside their
sphere. I kid you not. 12 years ago, after the teacher of one of my kids (six
years-old), never asked me to come in and play for the kids on the group class...
just even one tune... I finally volunteered. She actually said this to me - I
would rather you not if you wouldn't mind, and let me let get through the first
year with them at least so they don't lose focus on their materials. My own
kid's Suzuki teacher! So I was pretty upset about it... I went to audition
another Suzuki teacher and he invited me to watch a group class. I was
horrified by what I saw as horrible teaching, with the teacher hold up fingers
in front of the kid's faces so they could even play a note and know what finger
to use. And the parents sitting around observing like this was normal - these
kids were eight years old! Right then and there, after my kids quit violin and
the other one did too, I decided to author a much better method.
If people want to call my story and my experiences, "promotion" so be
it. I have every right to tell it, and it is meaningful to many. If my
experiences change one mind out there, it will have been worth it. But the fact
is, that tens of thousands of kids are already taking from my Method and that
is just in four years, so it is building by the week. American music to save
the day I think. I think it is finally time!
Christine Kharazian • I
actually wrote most of the following earlier today, but decided not to send it.
Now I changed my mind and there are parts that are redundant, since Caroline
says it almost the same way, but it's funny how we both wrote the same, so I
didn't cut it.
I wasn’t going to write anymore about this, but decided to do it just one more
time. I want to clarify that I am familiar quite well with both methods. I
believe I am objective, because the way I know them is through my own learning
and curiosity. When I meet a new student, I talk to them, look at them and
decide what method I will use. I love Sassmannshaus tradition, it is the best
for 5 to7 year olds, it is very solid conceptually. It is actually the only
method that you can use and then suddenly present with something else in the
middle of book 2 (like Rieding or Seitz Concerto) and kids just play it with
ease and without confusion. I also teach in middle school and I get some
beginners there. Often they can read music a little bit. For them Mark’s method
is great. I do really think he put a lot of thought in the songs selection. The
songs are relevant to the kids, they can make connections with their studies in
history. Musically it is simple and beautiful. Organic, you know… By the way,
as you can feel from my writing :), I am not American. But I am an American
teacher, I guess. Conceptually I think it is also solid. It is not correct to
say that it is only fiddle method. I think it is a great door to playing violin
in general. Somewhere in the comments Mark mentioned that it is a problem when
you need to supplement. Well, I think if you are teaching the same student for
more than 2 or 3 years and you don’t start supplementing, you are lazy,
uncreative and you don’t want that student to succeed. So yes, it will need
some supplementation if you are pushing for classical performing
perspective.
Let’s face it, a teacher can be good or bad regardless which method they use.
The teacher who said to you, Mark, that you shouldn't play for the kids, must
have been deaf , musically I mean, but not because she/ he was a Suzuki
teacher, just because who she was.
That is one problem with educational methods and systems. They are usually
created by some talented charismatic person who teaches it well, and then
everyone thinks they can just do it the same way by the book left. It doesn't
work that way. It’s all about the person who does it, not the book they
use.
About this Discussion: While it may seem that this discussion is an attack on
Mark, it actually isn’t. The discussion here is not against Mark or his method,
but against his comments about Suzuki and John Kendall.
Mark, on your comment that you are not angry, because otherwise you wouldn't be
a successful musician, I agree. You were not angry. But you definitely sound
like angry now. WHY?
Mark, you said it yourself, your method is so successful, every year more and
more students and teachers are using it. Those at least who didn't stumble upon
this discussion. What is your problem? Why not leave Suzuki teachers alone. Be
nice and I promise you, more and more of them will use your books. Please, give
people like me a chance to say: Students, we are going to use Mark O'Connor's
books. He is a great violinist and a kind and generous person. Of course, I
don’t have to say the second part of the sentence, but it would be so much
better if I could. I want a “beautiful heart” too , I guess…
If I am not mistaken, the first teacher that you chose to promote your method
was a Suzuki teacher. Was she persecuted by the CULT when she CONVERTED? Was
there ever any official statement from SAA against you or your method? And if
there was, who was the first in that conversation?
I think you should not compete and just let the time sort it out.
Christine Kharazian • One more
thing: (didn't fit in the word count)
I am mentioning this, just because you want so much your method "to save
the day" to be the One and Only in US. I still think the price is a
problem. There is no other method with CD or without, that costs $29.95. I know
about the Orchestra version, and that they are cheaper, but even they compared
with other classroom oriented methods are expensive. I mean, leave it that way,
but just don’t expect to swipe the country overnight. It is simply not
affordable for most of the public schools and many parents.
Also, I don't think there is any need for a method to be in 10 books. After a
few years students really should take on playing existing classical masterpiece
repertoire or any other style if they choose so.
Mark O'Connor • Christine,
I would never intentionally leave a forum and let the bullies win. And thank
you Carol. Oh no... I know all about bullies. The insult guy is from Seattle. I
grew up in Seattle. Maybe the place is prone to it, but I dealt with bullies
all through school. They have the same MO. The more that you try to duck, cover
and run away, the more they want to find you. It is essentially the same. The
person who gets off on bullying someone will not give up until they are made to
give up. That could take place by an authority of some kids to reprimand, it
could be that they get outnumbered and made to feel bad, or you simply out last
'em until they have no more intimidation tricks up their sleeve. He has used
all of his arsenal that he used on the other sites. The "core rep"
the bad review, giving it a grade routine. Yes, it is a very childish, but if
you all and myself allow him to get away with it, who is his next victim, one
of my O'Connor Method teachers who might not have as tough a skin as I have,
who can't defend themselves well as I can...? No it is despicable behavior and
should not be tolerated towards anyone, on any individual.
As far as my criticism of Suzuki, that cannot change. So if I was critical of
Suzuki for four hears in a row, and my blogs were read by 60,000 people on it,
but then all of the sudden, when the New York Times asks me about it... I am
supposed to say, that it is not that bad? That would make me look terrible,
like I am lying to get ahead or something. Here is what I always tell people
about myself, if you want my honest answer about something, you are going to
get it every time. I have not gotten this far in my music career, by shrinking
from having an opinion. People want my opinion: Is Suzuki good or is it bad? I
say it is bad.
You said the Suzuki teacher who would not let me play for my kid's class,
wasn't because she was a Suzuki teacher? Yes it was! Every single other music
teacher in the world would have me play for the kids most likely. It was
specifically because she was Suzuki, not because she was a good/bad/average
music teacher.
You asked me how rampant is the Suzuki cult. It is a good question. I think
that there are diehards that were in the cult and the article states that. My
lead teacher trainer was not in the cult, and she fought to try to change the
Suzuki system from within, and largely failed so she was what I call a rogue
Suzuki teacher for most of that 30 years. She held court how she wanted to,
separate from the acknowledged doctrine that governs the SAA. There are threads
and forums on the SAA that are full of hate speech against me as an
individual.
Remember, I have every right to work in this country and not be slandered,
attacked with character assassination designed to hurt my reputation in the
marketplace. On the other hand, I have every right as a free person, free of
any laws, to criticize a corporation repeatedly, and a method authored by a
deceased person. He did not have any offspring, so there is no slander or libel
from my end. I can investigate and talk about what we have found out, and
folks, read the articles... the research reveals that he lied about most
everything he wrote, including taking credit for writing Twinkle Twinkle Little
Star. The guy was one of the greatest frauds in music history. He lied about
his training, his associations, about his endorsements, just to get ahead. A
matter of fact I am almost done with my next blog on him that talks about the
fraudulent use of Casals' endorsement. It is a very big deal, and it should be
known. Thanks.
Mark O'Connor • Finally
to the John Kendall Interview posted at the beginning of this thread. I largely
agree with Kendall on what he has to say about Suzuki. We transcribed the
pertinent part of this video clip here. Thanks, MOC
* "When Paul Rolland was active in teaching, I was a good friend of his in
the early days. We were both in Illinois, and he of course was working on his
own systematic approach to pedagogy and died unfortunately when he was
relatively a young person. And some of his [Paul Rolland's] disciples thought well
this is a good chance to integrate, so they give workshops on Suzuki, Paul
Rolland and Orff and try to pull all of those three together... or Kodaly or
something. And I watched it for a while, and I asked myself...at their age how
could they be trained in both those methods of Rolland and Suzuki? I found out
that they would mostly just do one or the other and introduce a couple of
ideas. I talked to some of them and asked them why do you feel do you have to
integrate those? Why can't they be each one creating its own ambiance as it
goes along?
If you accept certain presumptions about Suzuki, then there are things of Paul
Rolland's that won't work in that setting and vice versa. Especially having to
do with the selection of literature in relation to the technical aspects. You
can't do daka daka da da and use it on Paul Rolland's pieces because they don't
work on that. They weren't intended to. He was intending to use this kind of
approach (bows smoothly), which has its on validity. But you can't play Twinkle,
Twinkle with that kind of a stroke and make it come out right. So I have tried
to persuade the teachers who were doing that, go ahead and do your own thing.
If you find something that integrates, then use it but be careful you are not
starting the student on two entirely different approaches to bowing for
example. It is just going to get him mixed up. Later on you can do any kind of
bowing...flexible. You can introduce methods from the most divergent. But in
the early stages, it seems to me that stepwise, building has to be done with
certain building blocks at first. But Paul and I used to discuss that, one of
his students went out and just had a terrible time and was trying to teach
Suzuki. He said why do the Suzuki people have to be so clannish and so just,
doing their own thing? He says why can't they be eclectic? I think part of the
answer was that they could be eclectic but they wouldn't have much validity in
either, they would have a foot in both camps and wouldn't be able to clarify as
they went along. And that student eventually had to quit the job because the
parents said that this is not Suzuki. And the parents were right, but what the
problem was they were trying to label things, not just do things the way they
want to. I thought that teachers should teach they way they want to, but not
try to inject some other thing onto it to make it sound respectable.
I had a symphony player from St. Louis come over one time and said I want to
start a Suzuki program in St. Louis, and I just want to get your ideas about
how I should start the program. I am going to use [other method books], I won't
have any records, I won't have the parents come to the lessons because they
just get in the way. I won't let the student listen to any recordings. I said,
why do you want to call it a Suzuki Method? Those are all principles of the
Suzuki... Well, that is what the parents are asking for -- Suzuki. I said, you
go ahead a do it but you are going to run into dissatisfaction when the parents
realize you are not teaching what you set out to do. Why don't you are start a
Jones Violin School for young violinists and teach any way you want to. But you
don't need to use the Suzuki name just to make it respectable. So he did that
actually, he didn't use Suzuki."
Mark O'Connor • Note: We
could not agree more with John Kendall as he speaks about the Suzuki Method
with much more objectivity later in his life. He describes the issues of
blending other methods and principles into Suzuki and how that is not advisable
and problematic for students. We agree that Suzuki is something very specific
and it cannot grow outwards to assimilate other methodologies to make a new
kind of logical pedagogy. Suzuki is tied to its original principles and its
literature. -A New American School of String Playing, The O'Connor Method
Note: It would be impossible for Shinichi Suzuki to have included "improv,
creativity, etc" in his own Method as he was not a creative musician,
could not improvise, etc. He would not have been able to author something in
pedagogy that he himself didn't do nor understand. As evidenced here in this
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnWv3pnRykI
Matthew Weiss • "
Note: We could not agree more with John Kendall as he speaks about the Suzuki
Method with much more objectivity later in his life. He describes the issues of
blending other methods and principles into Suzuki and how that is not advisable
and problematic for students. We agree that Suzuki is something very specific
and it cannot grow outwards to assimilate other methodologies to make a new
kind of logical pedagogy. Suzuki is tied to its original principles and its
literature. -A New American School of String Playing, The O'Connor Method
Note: It would be impossible for Shinichi Suzuki to have included "improv,
creativity, etc" in his own Method as he was not a creative musician,
could not improvise, etc. He would not have been able to author something in
pedagogy that he himself didn't do nor understand. As evidenced here in this
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnWv3pnRykI "
---MOC
More fantasy-land.
It doesn't matter if anyone in particular seems to think that Suzuki cannot be
integrated with other methods, because that fact is it integrates very well
with other methods and most good to excellent Suzuki teachers do exactly that
these days.
---Matt
27 days ago
·
·
Matthew Weiss • "One
more thing: (didn't fit in the word count)
I am mentioning this, just because you want so much your method "to save
the day" to be the One and Only in US. I still think the price is a
problem. There is no other method with CD or without, that costs $29.95. I know
about the Orchestra version, and that they are cheaper, but even they compared
with other classroom oriented methods are expensive. I mean, leave it that way,
but just don’t expect to swipe the country overnight. It is simply not
affordable for most of the public schools and many parents.
Also, I don't think there is any need for a method to be in 10 books. After a
few years students really should take on playing existing classical masterpiece
repertoire or any other style if they choose so."
Best to all,
Christine
Thanks for your heartfelt comments Christine!
Yes I also do wonder why the first Mark O'Connor book is $30 when other
comparable method books such as Essential Strings, etc. that also include a CD
go for around $10.
Mark O'Connor • The
costs of the various O'Connor Method books are priced accurately. I set the
retail price along with Shar Music for the optimum selling price. The $30 solo
books are not as high as some (there are some method books for $35) and not as
slow as some, (Suzuki comes in around the lowest at $20 with CD).
Where is the extra $10 value? There a many places that the value shows up in.
Suzuki Books are black and white, and the O'Connor is in color. I guarantee you
if that was redone in color, it would several dollars to the price. Color is
important today to have for beginners and intermediates. I want them reading
music and I want their head in the book.
There are twice the amount of pages (80) in the O'Connor books compared to
Suzuki's (40). There is more music in the books, and more of everything. The
O'Connor books is meant to last at least one year. The covers are thick and
durable to last a young students a whole year without falling apart.
The orchestra books are $10 and also in color for the kids.
Mark O'Connor • The
point is, that the father of the Suzuki Method did not want teachers teaching
Suzuki and supplementing in the first few books (first several years). This is
exactly what I have been saying all along. Exactly. It is in full quotations
and on Kendall's filmed interview.
The fact that Suzuki teachers have been supplementing has not been helping. We
have no great classical soloists out of Suzuki, no creative players out of
Suzuki and it is now bastardizing fiddling with that Suzuki approach to
teaching kids!
Remember it is not how teachers can be "creative," ie: various
versions of throwing in the kitchen sink - like Kendall talks about - how about
a little Rolland, Orff and Kodaly with your Suzuki?! Yaaay! It just has not
worked. It should be about the students becoming creative artists, not how
clever teachers can be with mixing a matching their materials right out of any
methodology and sense.
Christine Kharazian • It would
be so nice if Marks respectful remark on Kendall's interview would finish this
discussion. I was going to comment this morning: and this concludes this topic,
but thought who am I...
Re: to great violinists from Suzuki, let's remember again that Suzuki method is
intended for very young children. Younger then usual beginners. 3, 4 year olds,
sometimes even 2. Hence those short bowings that to a normal violinist seem
ridiculous. Hilary Hahn, I believe did start there, for a year. I am sure there
are more who started there. Who said you should stay all your life in a method.
That's why it is a method, just to start. I know there are 10 books, but they
are just edits of classical music, Unnecessary, but whatever. I think it is
also unnecessary to talk about this old method, which served well to many. So
it should be respected for what it meant to them.
But MOST IMPORTANTLY I want to correct my own comment about the orchestra
version. You are right, the price of them is ok. But... They cannot be considered
a method. They are books of songs. Maybe they are nice arrangements, but there
are so many nice arrangements for school orchestras. It would be a method if it
would have all the concepts that the teacher needs to teach in a beginning
class of mixed string instruments in the book written out. Most of us are
dealing with students who don't read music when they come to us in a big
classroom setting. What can we do with your book there? Also by the way, I
heard from viola and cello teachers that the key is not the most beginning key
for them and the parts are sometimes harder then the violin part. In Beautiful
skies, for example, you have other sections for them.So by the time violins are
done learning, violas are only approaching second section. It is so impractical
for a teacher. It might sound beautiful, but we can't use it to TEACH, so it is
not a method.
Solo book for violin is a different story. You can address those concepts in
one on one lesson easier, so it is not a problem.
Gary Lee • Hi Matt,
having worked in the music publishing business, I can tell you that price of a
product is based on a number of factors including typesetting & editing
costs, binding, format (some printing companies are more cost effective with
certain print sizes than others), whether color or black & white, print
quantity (the more printed means costs spread out over more books), etc. Full
color bumps up the price (4 plates) vs. Suzuki interior pages (only black - 1
plate) or Essential Elements interior pages (black plus 1 color = 2
plates).
Publishing a new series of books is a large investment. What if you print a
huge amount--spreading the cost over many copies--but they don't sell? They sit
in a warehouse and they get taxed on the inventory that doesn't move. Or, you
print a smaller number with the cost spread over fewer books = higher price. In
a first print run, publishers have to recover their costs. It's not until a
second print run--if there is one--that they can make a profit.
The company I formerly worked for had a number of books that only made it
through the first print run. Eventually the company quit the publishing
business and I and some others were out of a job.
Mark O'Connor • Christine,
just like you were mistaken on the price of the books, now you are mistaken
about the Orchestra Book I being effective as a method in a school classroom.
First of all, I selected the same repertoire from solo book I on purpose, so
all the teaching points are still in the solo method of those pieces (and
teacher training). And the pieces themselves are in the method. The cello part
is not any harder than the violin part to Beautiful Skies - that is incorrect.
Here is a good gauge for you. This is a beginning group of 6th and 7th graders
in a public school. They are already playing together, enjoying all of the
benefits of a musical method! All of them had been playing their string
instrument for less than 6 months. It is amazing! From Tulsa public schools.
Thanks.
Christine Kharazian • It
depends on how the program is organised. If they have any individual lessons,
with the teacher of their own instrument, then yes it may work. That's why I am
saying it is a book of songs. I am talking about a class that has no other
teacher. Just one teacher who should teach all of them in one class. And they
don't have one on one lessons at all. The book doesn't teach any music
concepts. That means the teacher should separately teach them to read, to count
etc. all instruments at once, and there is no material for it n the book. So
the teacher will have to SUPPLEMENT. So it is not a method.
Christine Kharazian • Also I
just wanted to clarify this for everyone. I really don't want to argue with
you, or anyone else. There is much more to life. All the best.
Mark O'Connor • Christine,
there should be no argument, but please just get the facts straight. The video
I just attached is a public school program. None of them take private lessons! NONE!
Just one teacher for that classroom. It spells it out in the description of the
video and on the screen. It is very, very clear.
Christine Kharazian • The
students on the link are High school students. They probably already can read
music. It can be used with the students who can read music.
Mark O'Connor • No,
those are 6th and 7th graders! Middle School and they have only played music
for 6 months! That is what I am saying Christine. Can you just take five
minutes, watch the video, read the text and read the description box and get
back to me after you are informed please? It would save so much of this back
and forth!
Antonella DiGiulio • I was
looking into the orchestra books for a project for my non profit and I am going
to give them a try for the beginner ensemble. I guess they can be used also for
younger students if you have more time to work with them as they have normally
in school. There are also some discounts for educators and so on. I don't think
it is expensive. I published myself something for music theory for kids and the
difference between the price of the book and the price for the students is
really so tiny that I think Mark is earning more from teacher trainings than
actually from selling the books. I saw also that in the books there are things
that kids could figure out without a teacher. So... I think it is a great deal
for us, offering music lesson almost for free and for kids that don't have any
music in school nor the possibility to afford private lessons.
Matthew Weiss • "Remember
it is not how teachers can be "creative," ie: various versions of
throwing in the kitchen sink - like Kendall talks about - how about a little
Rolland, Orff and Kodaly with your Suzuki?! Yaaay! It just has not worked. It
should be about the students becoming creative artists, not how clever teachers
can be with mixing a matching their materials right out of any methodology and
sense"
---MOC
I would like what has "not worked" with string players?
The only thing that string players in general need is more exposure to
improvising, in the same way that wind players have for decades now. It's not
rocket science...just a change in attitude. Happily, at least in my kid's
school district, the orchestra teacher is doing just that, and no he is not
using the O'Connor Method books, even thought they are available at the major
music stores locally.
Matthew Weiss • "Remember
it is not how teachers can be "creative," ie: various versions of
throwing in the kitchen sink - like Kendall talks about - how about a little
Rolland, Orff and Kodaly with your Suzuki?! Yaaay! It just has not worked. It
should be about the students becoming creative artists, not how clever teachers
can be with mixing a matching their materials right out of any methodology and
sense"
---MOC
I would like to know what has "not worked" with teachers and string
players over the past 40 years?
The only thing that string players need is more exposure to improvising and
happily, at least in my kid's school district, the orchestra teachers are doing
just that. Wind players have been getting this kind of exposure in the public
schools for decades now. It's not rocket science---just a change in attitude
from the educators. And no, these teachers are not using the O'Connor Method,
even though Mark's books are available in most of the local music stores.
Mark O'Connor • Here is
what went wrong during the Suzuki era of the last 50 years when Suzuki was the
dominant violin teaching method in the U.S. for children. 1964 - 2013.
A Case For A New American School Of String Playing The Trajectory of Violin And
Strings Compared To Other Instruments Over The Last 50 Years
1. Guitar (the guitar has risen to be one of the most popular instruments in
the country)
2. Brass (because of Marching Band and Jazz Bands in schools, they have
overtaken strings in popularity)
3. Percussion (there are more percussion concertos written and performed today
than new cello concertos)
4. Winds (Concert Band has overtaken the symphony orchestra in most high
schools and universities)
5. Keyboards (because of the advent of modern keyboards and synthesizers, their
accessibility to composition and popular music as well as the good number of
classical music soloists, they have pulled ahead of strings in
importance)
Why We Need A New Methodology?
While we have plenty of good orchestra players in the current environment,
there are far too many for the amount of jobs available. We need a more
diversified and balanced approach to violin pedagogy in the 21st century.
The New American School Of String Playing
We need more violin...:
1. Player-Composers
2. Improvisers
3. Arrangers
4. Ensemble Leaders
5. Top Classical Soloists
6. Classical Soloists who can contribute artistically
Matthew Weiss • "Here
is what went wrong during the Suzuki era of the last 50 years when Suzuki was
the dominant violin teaching method in the U.S. for children. 1964 -
2013.
A Case For A New American School Of String Playing The Trajectory of Violin And
Strings Compared To Other Instruments Over The Last 50 Years
1. Guitar (the guitar has risen to be one of the most popular instruments in
the country)
2. Brass (because of Marching Band and Jazz Bands in schools, they have
overtaken strings in popularity)
3. Percussion (there are more percussion concertos written and performed today
than new cello concertos)
4. Winds (Concert Band has overtaken the symphony orchestra in most high
schools and universities)
5. Keyboards (because of the advent of modern keyboards and synthesizers, their
accessibility to composition and popular music as well as the good number of
classical music soloists, they have pulled ahead of strings in
importance)
Why We Need A New Methodology?
While we have plenty of good orchestra players in the current environment,
there are far too many for the amount of jobs available. We need a more
diversified and balanced approach to violin pedagogy in the 21st century.
The New American School Of String Playing
We need more violin...:
1. Player-Composers
2. Improvisers
3. Arrangers
4. Ensemble Leaders
5. Top Classical Soloists
6. Classical Soloists who can contribute artistically"
---MOC
Well I guess you might as well piss off all the guitar, brass, percussion,
wind, and keyboard players along with the Suzuki teachers, parents, and
teachers :)
Violin is more popular now than it has ever been---most likely a result of the
Suzuki Method.
As far as "Classical Soloists who can contribute artistically", I'm
wondering how you are qualified to create such an artist not being one
yourself? So far there is no evidence that you can play classical music at all,
and certainly not at the level of a concert artist.
Actually no. It only demonstrates that you can create something within a genre
all your own. While it may eventually become a narrow slice of what people
generally consider "Classical Music" it does not establish you as a
classical musician.
To be considered a proficient classical musician, at a bare minimum you need to
show that you can play the following composers at least half-way
decently:
Bach
Beethoven
Mozart
Also, most well-rounded classical musicians also know how to play:
Vivaldi
Corelli
Brahms
Schubert
Schumann
Dvorak
Tchaikovsky
etc.
Do you have any recordings or YouTube videos of yourself playing any of the
above composers?
Mark O'Connor • Gee...
how about a violinist composing a classical piece for Yo-Yo Ma! And playing at
Avery Fisher Hall with him on that same piece for Great Performances on
PBS?
Matthew Weiss • "Gee...
how about a violinist composing a classical piece for Yo-Yo Ma! And playing at
Avery Fisher Hall with him on that same piece for Great Performances on PBS?
"
Yes you are a very talented and accomplished violinist within the genre of
music that you have created for yourself that hopefully one day will be
considered a sub-genre of "Classical Music".
However the above two videos do not establish that you have the bare essentials
needed to be called a "Classical Violinist".
---Matt
26 days ago
·
·
Matthew Weiss • In order
to be considered a decent classical violinist you need to provide something
like this:
Mark O'Connor • "bare
essentials?" Well Joel Smirnoff and CIM sure think I do! I was asked to
give a recital at the Cleveland Institute of Music as well as masterclasses and
I am returning this year in fact to do the same. This is violin technique
fitting of a Paganini Caprice but they are my own caprices I have composed.
They are starting to make appearances in violin competitions and student
recitals at universities. This qualifies in the list I gave as what I would
like to see more violinists get into at the top levels, to be able to make an
artistic contribution. Remember Paganini never played Beethoven on stage in
public. There needs to be more of a variety - but violin technique is violin
technique and is not that mysterious.
Mark O'Connor • And I
have asked Mathew Weiss to quit writing me. How many times have asked this? 50,
100? It just goes on and on. He has some kind of obsession with me. I would
like it stopped. Could someone notify administration here on this. It is too
much, the constant pursuit of an individual here, some kind of sick obsessed
behavior, where he creates stories in his head that we are colleagues and he
writes scripts for his friends... Please, I am being diplomatic, but enough is
enough from this guy. Thanks.
Matthew Weiss • "Mark
O'Connor • "bare essentials?" Well Joel Smirnoff and CIM sure think I
do! I was asked to give a recital at the Cleveland Institute of Music as well
as masterclasses and I am returning this year in fact to do the same. This is
violin technique fitting of a Paganini Caprice but they are my own caprices I
have composed. They are starting to make appearances in violin competitions and
student recitals at universities. This qualifies in the list I gave as what I
would like to see more violinists get into at the top levels, to be able to
make an artistic contribution. Remember Paganini never played Beethoven on
stage in public. There needs to be more of a variety - but violin technique is
violin technique and is not that mysterious.
The above piece is an excellent composition and you play it masterfully.
However, once again, it exists within a genre that you have created for yourself
and that hopefully one day will be universally considered as a small slice of
what everyone else considers "Classical Music"
If I were a judge in a musical competition that required the participates to be
all-around musicians and capable of playing any genre of music I would give you
the following grade:
playing Mark O'Connor Originals: A+
playing standard fiddle tunes: B
playing Classical Music: F
Matthew Weiss • "Mark
O'Connor • How about the violin concerto that has the most performance of any
composed in the last 50 years! More than Shosta II.
You are still avoiding the question---see my above answers.
As an aside, if the number of public performances is going to be how we rate
the worth of any particular composition, then Dr. Suzuki has us all beat since
"Perpetual Motion", "Allegro", "Andantino", and
so on have had tens of thousands of public performances over the years :)
Matthew Weiss • "Come
on, Matt, your comment is completely unfair. Stop, the topic is already
exhausted."
---MOC
Hi Christine!
What is so unfair about it? If Mark were presenting his method for what it
is---something designed to teach kids folk, fiddle, and Americana then there
would be no need for him to demonstrate some level of competence outside of
those genres.
Since he continues to claim that his method prepares children to be able to
play all genres of music, including Classical Music, then he needs to
demonstrate that he at least has some level of competence in Classical
Music.
Dr. Suzuki was not a concert artist by any stretch, but at least he
demonstrated that he could play the repertoire within the genres that he taught
kids to play.
Gary Lee • Matt, I
work with a composer who writes his own music for piano trio as well as music
for choirs (much of the choral works are sacred - in Latin). He is a gifted
pianist and he can play traditional classical composers. However, he promotes
his own music and that's where he puts his energy. Why would he do otherwise?
Composers are a different breed than those of us who only play other composers
and not our own original works.
With all the composing Mark O'Connor has done, why would he put energy in dead
composers when he has his own works? He plays his works and he can get some
ASCAP/BMI royalties as a composer and it gets other people interested in
performing his works. As a composer, why then put energy into dead composers
except when he's teaching? Mark O'Connor is doing exactly what he needs to be
doing to be Mark O'Connor.
Matthew Weiss • "Matt,
I work with a composer who writes his own music for piano trio as well as music
for choirs (much of the choral works are sacred - in Latin). He is a gifted
pianist and he can play traditional classical composers. However, he promotes
his own music and that's where he puts his energy. Why would he do otherwise?
Composers are a different breed than those of us who only play other composers
and not our own original works.
With all the composing Mark O'Connor has done, why would he put energy in dead
composers when he has his own works? He plays his works and he can get some
ASCAP/BMI royalties as a composer and it gets other people interested in
performing his works. As a composer, why then put energy into dead composers
except when he's teaching? Mark O'Connor is doing exactly what he needs to be
doing to be Mark O'Connor."
---Gary Lee
Hi Gary,
I am also a composer, am currently writing an opera, wrote a concerto for
Clarinet and Orchestra, play gigs, have a day job, a family, kids, am the
President of the Octava Chamber Orchestra, and occasionally find the time to
watch the "Big Bang Theory".
So I understand what it means to be busy.
I'm not asking for the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto from Mark (obviously he
can't play it). I am simply asking for some demonstration of some level of
competence in the area that he claims he can teach children.
We could start with an excerpt from Suzuki Book 1. How long would it take the
average classical violinist to make a YouTube video of that? I would guess 30
minutes to an hour , even requiring multiple takes. :)
Mark O'Connor • Thanks
Christine and Gary for fending him off - he obviously has some kind of odd
obsession and fetish and it is not healthy. Maybe he will go away.
Incredible press on the Method to date! This is a lot more than you can say for
Suzuki's mainstream press. Maybe it is just jealousy...We find that everywhere
on the internet. It is a shame. But as far as a contest between who can play
better classical violin, Suzuki or myself? That is going to be a lopsided score
in my favor. Like Gary says, I could work up the Tchaik or others - take a few
months off and perform it. Suzuki could never do that in a million years!
Because of his lack of violin technique. Some people have wanted me to do the
Bach partitas as a performer etc. But I made a decision to just perform my own
works when I launched my solo career 25 years ago. Not that I don't love
Beethoven, my favorite composer, but it is not in my interest to perform it.
All agree around me these days, my time is much better spent developing new
repertoire for violin, for orchestra, for chamber music, performing my existing
repertoire and authoring the Method with the American School of String Playing
track.
He keeps mentioning the European composers! They are not in the American School
of String Playing obviously. But violin technique is violin technique. If you
can read, play in tune, bow up and down with good sound and move your fingers,
you will get into your middle school orchestra and the child can take it from
there where they want to. If they want to follow in the orchestra direction.
They they can get 6 years of conservatory training and 2 degrees, and try their
hand at auditions for a major orchestra in order to have a performing career.
These same auditions that Mr. Weiss never won with his own Suzuki violin
training. He lives in Seattle, but of course does not play with the Seattle
Symphony. If these students want to do an American ensemble approach, then that
is also there for them. But the current system of Suzuki training is broken. It
just has not worked. The strings have been in a greater deficit than ever
before during the last 50 years and that lies at the feet of Suzuki and his
pedagogy and training of violin players not to be creative musicians. And then
on top of it, it produces stuck in the mud attitudes of Weiss.
Tami Nelson • This
bantering is all getting a little old. There are great performers, teachers,
and composers and no one can be great at everything. What we can be is
collaborating colleagues improving music in the US public/private schools. I
live in Minnesota and music in the schools here is shrinking drastically and
very fast.
I would like to read information on methodology and what works in the classroom
and private studios. I have the MOC books, Phillips, Suzuki, and the current
method books like Artistry for Strings and Essential Elements. They all have
great ideas to use in your teaching, but they aren't perfect by any means. Take
a little of this, take a little of that. Let's talk about methodology to teach
classroom teachers like myself how to improve our methods/music choices in the
classrooms and to build stronger musicians than what we are. I am learning new
things everyday and work constantly at being a better teacher. It is up to us
to teach our children all that we can and to teach them how to respect other
musicians for who they are.
Gary Lee • Hi Mark,
I think I've stated before - I think the whole system of training string
players is broken. I studied with very fine cello teachers, former players of
major symphonies and former students of some illustrious cellists. Music
schools did not teach how to market yourself and how to take care of your body
so you don't injure it. My teachers did not teach stretching, marketing
yourself, improvisation, playing by ear, or sightreading. They taught the
traditional repertoire and they did not teach the Suzuki method. They got their
jobs right out of school - the orchestras came to them offering jobs. I
graduated with an MM from the St. Louis Conservatory (now defunct) and waited
for the phone to ring.
From childhood, I composed. Every few years I'd destroy what I wrote and
compose more. In college, I was told by composition majors (around 1980) that
nobody composes like that now--tonal music, that is. Take another few years and
my urge to compose was largely squashed. Later working for a publisher I'd see
many neglected new works collecting dust on shelves.
There are many ways the educational system has been failing musicians. Some
succeed despite the circumstances. Now as a cello teacher I teach things I wish
my teachers would have taught in addition to the good things they did teach.
The world has changed. Some people haven't realized it.
I also think the medical world has failed us musicians, but I'll leave that
alone except that the failure of doctors to diagnose my heart rhythm problems
for many years (more conveniently blaming the patient) seriously sabotaged my
career.
Matt, from what I heard the SAA will not allow someone as illustrious as Mark
O'Connor to record all the Suzuki pieces and put them online. He'd be
threatened and maybe sued. I had once thought of doing videos performing all
the Suzuki cello pieces for my students and posting on Youtube, but I realize
that would not be cool. I don't like the Suzuki cello recordings. Some of them
are way to fast for a student. The student then learns sloppy playing trying to
play as fast as the recording.
BTW, Mark, thank you for posting your videos. I love them. I stay up way too
late at night watching them, to the detriment of my sleep.
These threads are helpful to me, but there is a point where some of us here are
posting the same thing again and again and again, some of which is getting old.
Thank you for pointing out the futility of these two immature brats taking up
our valuable
time with their futile discussion. I think these two jerks have forgotten that
this is suppose
to be a Chamber Music Network, where valuable ideas are exchanged among
intelligent
musicians and teachers. We've heard enough and the jury has brought in their
decision,
Throw this case out.
Matthew Weiss • "This
bantering is all getting a little old. There are great performers, teachers,
and composers and no one can be great at everything. What we can be is
collaborating colleagues improving music in the US public/private schools. I
live in Minnesota and music in the schools here is shrinking drastically and
very fast.
I would like to read information on methodology and what works in the classroom
and private studios. I have the MOC books, Phillips, Suzuki, and the current
method books like Artistry for Strings and Essential Elements. They all have
great ideas to use in your teaching, but they aren't perfect by any means. Take
a little of this, take a little of that. Let's talk about methodology to teach
classroom teachers like myself how to improve our methods/music choices in the
classrooms and to build stronger musicians than what we are. I am learning new
things everyday and work constantly at being a better teacher. It is up to us
to teach our children all that we can and to teach them how to respect other
musicians for who they are."
---Tami Nelson
Hi Tami!
Thank you for your wonderful comment :) My sentiments exactly---the only reason
I'm coming off so strong on this thread is that sometimes you have to
"fight fire with fire".
Months ago, Mark launched a wholly inappropriate and offensive media campaign
against the Suzuki Method. Most of the Suzuki teachers and supporters are
following a path of silence, with the expectation that eventually Mark's
campaign will implode by itself and naturally go away.
However, I'm following the spirit of these famous verses from
Ecclesiastes:
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the
heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up
that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build
up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to
dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to
embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast
away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to
speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of
peace."
The way I see it, the panzer divisions have already crossed our borders so
Peace, Love, and Harmony are not really the appropriate response.
Looking forward to it all ending, but I doubt it will happen any time soon
unless the moderator declares this thread complete and locks it down :)
Mark O'Connor • Can
Mathew Weiss please not contact me anymore? Is there a way to block him from
this site? He is in a perpetual argument with himself. I come with a new
Method, and I want to talk about my research and he keeps insulting with his
Suzuki stuff - which the whole world already knows about, My God, just give it
a break will you. Just leave! Everyone knows exactly what Suzuki is. This is a
place for new ideas. I have a whole new Method and I can't post anything with
this insult guy all over me. I am going to be talking to a lawyer about the
libel stuff. You just can't do to someone what he is doing. I have every right
to talk about my product and create interest for it without his lies about me
every other response. It is obsessive. It is pathetic.
Mark O'Connor • Caroline,
I think you might have it backwards. If the bully stops commenting and
insulting me, claiming that I can't play as well as Suzuki can etc etc... then
it goes back to normal, and I can both answer questions about the subject of
this thread and the research we have done on it, as well as field questions
about the Method. The bully should be asked to leave, not the bullied. Here is
the original article on John Kendall in case the original message of this
thread was lost in the insults and pettiness of this certain Suzuki teacher who
should back off, and go get some teacher training for the 21st century
students. I don't put up with bullies, and I certainly hope you don't. There is
no place for it in our society.
Mark O'Connor • I
attended a wonderful speech on music education by the dean of music at
University of Miami. It was exceptional. Paraphrasing, he said that the
"technical" training that Japan developed in the 1960s was copied by
us in America, but it was not good for Japan and it wasn't good for us. He held
his arms outstretched and said on one hand is the technical training part of
music, and on the other is the hope, love, intention, aspiration,
communicative... etc etc part of music. He said children must have the latter
and it is only achieved through musical creativity in the young ages. He
mentioned a bare bones elementary school where the university adopted it for
their musical project last year. They have masters students come in three days
a week with instruments and teach music. The music component is the only thing
that has changed in the last year at the school and that school went from a D
school to an A school he said!
They teach my Method in that school! The speaker's name today was dean Shelly
Berg, jazz pianist. There were grown men visible moved to tears with these
stories. It was a great day for music in the school advocacy!
Mark O'Connor • Caroline,
well I sure know what I am worth as a human being, and that certainly does not
exclude the dignity to be on the linkedin forum, free from assault from an
amateur violinist who's mother is evidently a Suzuki cultist, and this is his
mission - to obsess over me. It is just ugly stuff.
I believe we hit a milestone in this conversation yesterday that would explain
why music from the standard classical music repertoire is absent from The Mark
O'Connor Method:
Mark himself has very little training/exposure to classical music and cannot
play it himself!
Though he is an absolute whiz at playing his own compositions (some even refer
to Mark as "genius" in this category), and he has the technical
capabilities on par with classical concert violinists, he has not put in the
time that is required to develop a deep understanding of the classical music
genre, which is what is required in order to play the following composer's
works at level of a professional orchestral player or concert artist:
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Brahms
Schumman
Vivaldi
Corelli
etc.
The Suzuki Method is designed to teach children how to play Classical Music
from a very early age.
The Mark O'Connor Method is designed to teach kids how to play Fiddle, Folk,
Americana, and Mark O'Connor originals.
Mark's assault on the Suzuki method is like a guy with a home-made ultralight
airplane who writes treatises on how much better his airplane is than the Ford
Motor Company's entire line of cars. His airplane has a superior rate of climb,
glide ratio, short field takeoff, and so on. Meanwhile, Ford representatives
and enthusiasts point out that his ultralight really doesn't taxi very well and
at least needs some brake lights, turn signals, and seat belts before it will
be allowed on city streets :)
It's looking like some people are really taking offense to my idea of Mark not
being able to play classical repertoire, so I may need to apologize for going
to that extreme.
Instead, I do want to address the notion that Suzuki student are supposedly
robots, can't improvise, and so on which is nonsense. I am a product of the
Suzuki Method and can provide many counter-examples with my own performances of
music from many genres, including a couple of Jazz standards and a well-known
Latin tune.
If you'd like to hear what a grown-up Suzuki student can do, please go
here:
Mark O'Connor • What I
am asking is for Mathew Weiss to quit writing me and targeting me on line,
lying about my music, ability and method. He has targeted me, singling me out
as an individual giving me verbal attacks and with intimidation for the better
part of a year now. I have not done that to anyone. He seems obsessed with me,
while at the same time he seems to really like what I do, he belittles, insults
and lies continually. I would like for him to please leave me alone. I should
not have to leave Linkedin because of an online bully that is left here to have
free reign with no monitoring from adm. Before he came on, these two threads
about me and about the Method were both considerable and long. So there is
interest here in what I have to say and certainly in my Method. I should not
have to leave because of a bully, targeting individuals. I will be speaking
with my attorney about the bullying, intimidation and libel by him. There could
be some serious issues here.
Once again, it is impossible for me to commit slander and libel to a deceased
person or a corporation. (Suzuki and the SAA)
The things that are said about myself here, are designed to hurt me, my
reputation and my brand - and that potentially means a loss in income. If
Mathew Weiss keeps it up, there could be calculated damages accessed. At the
very least, he will have to retain a lawyer on libel accusation and the expenses
will add up while the lawyers see what kind of damages this has caused turning
away teachers from my products. I have asked him to stop many times, and there
are witnesses to that here. All I can say once again, is this the
"beautiful heart" of a Suzuki teacher that they claim to have? The
"good citizen" they brag about creating? You have to shake your head.
I was researching the O'Connor method books yesterday and I found this article
that was extremely interesting and appropriate for all of these discussions
that have been posted here. I loved the article as it addressed the subject on
a positive and experienced view. Please read.
I have the O'Connor orchestra books for violin I and 2, and they were $29.95
when I ordered them. I ordered the $7.95 version from Shar Music last week for
my students. They are priced reasonably and I can't wait for the next series. I
could not tell you the differences between the two books at this time except
the lower price did not come with a CD. I haven't compared them yet to see why
the difference in price.
It would be wonderful if the O'Connor Method and Suzuki could peacefully co-exist---they
really are following two different streams, so there is no real need to compare
the two.
For those kids and families most interested in fiddle, folk, Americana et al:
Do the O'Connor Method
For those kids and families most interested in Classical Music: Do the Suzuki
Method or something similar.
Mark O'Connor • There
are people here posting that are just simply ignorant of American fiddling.
"Fiddle" students don't need a method book! Historically fiddlers
have always learned by ear - no method. My Method is for classical music
students learning to play the violin but in a much more creative way, inspired
by 400 years of musical diversity rather than a narrow window of baroque music
from 250 years ago for year after year. A huge difference but the same
students. Tami the the $8.00 book you just ordered is Orchestra Book I or II
for classical orchestra programs in schools from the O'Connor Method.
Matthew Weiss • "What
I am asking is for Mathew Weiss to quit writing me and targeting me on line,
lying about my music, ability and method. He has targeted me, singling me out
as an individual giving me verbal attacks and with intimidation for the better
part of a year now. I have not done that to anyone. He seems obsessed with me,
while at the same time he seems to really like what I do, he belittles, insults
and lies continually. I would like for him to please leave me alone. I should
not have to leave Linkedin because of an online bully that is left here to have
free reign with no monitoring from adm. Before he came on, these two threads
about me and about the Method were both considerable and long. So there is
interest here in what I have to say and certainly in my Method. I should not
have to leave because of a bully, targeting individuals. I will be speaking
with my attorney about the bullying, intimidation and libel by him. There could
be some serious issues here.
Once again, it is impossible for me to commit slander and libel to a deceased
person or a corporation. (Suzuki and the SAA)
The things that are said about myself here, are designed to hurt me, my
reputation and my brand - and that potentially means a loss in income. If
Mathew Weiss keeps it up, there could be calculated damages accessed. At the
very least, he will have to retain a lawyer on libel accusation and the expenses
will add up while the lawyers see what kind of damages this has caused turning
away teachers from my products. I have asked him to stop many times, and there
are witnesses to that here. All I can say once again, is this the
"beautiful heart" of a Suzuki teacher that they claim to have? The
"good citizen" they brag about creating? You have to shake your
head."
---MOC
Hi Everyone,
If you carefully read what I say, you will see that I do not directly attack
Mark as a person in the same way that he does to so many other people.
What I do is pointedly dissect the many flaws in his arguments.
One big exception is that I stated that Mark cannot play the Tchaikovsky Violin
Concerto and other classical repertoire.
That was pushing the envelop too far.
What I should have said was:
"There is no evidence that I know of, such as YouTube videos, etc. that
demonstrates that Mark can play standard classical repertoire such as the
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, Sonatas and Concertos by Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms,
and other composers and works considered the bread and butter of Classical
Music."
Since these composers are not part of Mark's books, it's not really necessary
for him to demonstrate any proficiency in the bread and butter of Classical
Music.
Mark is great at what he is expert at, but probably should stick to those
things and realize that everyone has a focus and no one can honestly claim to
be great at everything.
Mark O'Connor • If I
wasn't busy writing nine concertos for orchestra of my own, I might take my
advanced violin technique and work of the Tchaik, but I don't need to! For my
own performances, I exclusively concentrate on my work! 10,000 and more
violinists can play the war horses on stage. There is one person I know of who
has written nine concertos in our era and can perform their own nine concertos
with orchestra. So, I will take that distinction any day. My concertos have
received a total of 600 performances with orchestra now. It is a stat that I am
thrilled with, but still want to continued to build on! For every time I would
play a war horse concerto, it is one less time that I get to put one of my own
on stage. So I am excited about putting my new music on stage!
The great violinist Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg who has played side by side with
me on stage 35 different times for my double violin concerto has this to say
about my work.
Mark O'Connor • From Ron
Malanga • "Matt, astonishingly, wrote:
"There is no evidence that I know of, such as YouTube videos, etc. that
demonstrates that Mark can play standard classical repertoire such as the
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, Sonatas and Concertos by Mozart, Beethoven,
Brahms, and other composers and works considered the bread and butter of
Classical Music."
Oh yeah? Well Matt, consider the following (yes, purposely ugly)
statement:
"There is no evidence that I know of, such as YouTube videos, etc. that
demonstrates that Matt has stopped beating his wife."
As Sagan was fond of saying, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence."
One cannot prove a negative. It's unfair. Your postulating one demonstrates you
are, at best, illogical and at worst, mean-spirited.
Oh, and the childish pseudo-bargain, "Mr. O'Connor, if you stop saying
what I don't want to hear, I'll play with you," indicates you're juvenile,
petty, or mean-spirited.
And attempting to assail Mr. O'Connor's musicianship!?! WOW!! That one marks
you out as either willfully uninformed, spectacularly unmusical, or (and my
money is on this one again) mean-spirited.
So it bears repeating as you seemed to miss it the first time: Matt, just stop.
You're making a fool of yourself.
In hopes the ad hominem attacks vanish but certainly non-deferentially
yours,
Ron
PS. In spite of the lack of data, don't fret, I don't believe the wife-beating
thing."
Mark O'Connor • "I
want children to play music, have a good heart, and be beautiful people…and
there is so much more. Music is a powerful force for good in the world, and
there is no better example than the music and the philosophy of music from
America! It represents individuality, freedom of expression, creativity,
diversity, community – it represents democracy. " -Mark O'Connor
Former Secretary of State George Shultz recently spoke about music as a way to
bring a diversity in population together.
Mark O'Connor • This is
exactly what I have been saying to beginning music educators in violin. You
have had it wrong for the last 50 years in the Suzuki era! Young children
should not be taught with
mimic-rote-repetition-drills-memorization-ear-training. The methodology has to
contain creativity and improvisation! And I use American music in order to best
deliver those results in the modern era! -Mark O'Connor (The O'Connor Method)
Little Miss Mozart - prodigy to retune Britain
Seven-year old British girl Alma Deutscher is taught to improvise. A girl who
wrote an opera at seven could change the way music is taught. Stephen Fry
described her compositions as 'simply mind-blowing.'
"allowing her to learn through improvisation - as Mozart and many
musicians of the 18th century did - rather than studying scales and completing
drills has helped to nurture that ability." - The Sunday Times,
London
Matthew Weiss • I wonder
if the author of article bothered to read Mozart's letters or any other music
history books?
You can bet that his father taught W.A. Mozart scales, drills, and so on in his
early years, as well as music theory, introduced him to the music of the
composers of the day and those that preceded him. Besides being an incredibly
talented and industrious composer, Mozart also was one of the best concert
pianists in Europe.
You don't get that good by improvising all day long---it also takes hard work,
discipline, and the proper training to build that kind of technique.
Mark O'Connor • After a
lot of good information and discussion here, I think that I am going to leap
off this thread since it is so derogatory in its opening statement, like Adam
has mentioned, plus the author of the derogatory language has not bothered to
make a single entry since she started either one of her
"discussions." Actually, I know who she is - she taught a family
member of mine... and that family member had to discontinue to find another
teacher. So maybe there is a better start that I could do with a discussion
thread. But I think that I have answered the John Kendall questions, and have
stated that I agree with Kendall's position on Suzuki on the posted videos from
late in his life. I agree with the older Kendall, and not with the younger
Kendall as his position on Suzuki clearly evolved as I have pointed out. I am
actually using one of these very videos posted at the top here, on my own
channel to bolster my opinions of my current pedagogy.
So even for that purpose, the discussion thread had lots of value for me. But
more importantly, I have met a lot of great folks on this thread, some I
believe I will be life-long associates with. Please join my group on Linkedin,
and let's continue the discussion with more positive discussion topics than a
Suzuki teacher with an axe to grind, once again calling me names for writing a
blog article on Kendall and Suzuki's business relationship, which I have every
right to do. I think for whatever reason, the personification of Suzuki
teacher's anger towards me on a personal basis is unique. I have been just as
critical of Hal Leonard Essential Elements and music conservatories in my articles,
and I have heard no anger from any of those folks towards me personally. Very
interesting indeed and it speaks to what John Kendall referred to in the posted
video as "clannish" behavior. It seems to be what turned him off at
some point in the end, and I will have to say I agree. John Kendall asked to
see my first two books of my Method 5 years ago, and he gave me a thumbs up on
them stating that he was impressed. So I have some history with him in that
way, and it more or less comes full circle. I do have another blog article
coming on the research we have done on the Pablo Casals component to all of
this and how effectively he was used as an endorsement for Suzuki. Several
researches have supplied information to that end from around the world. This is
all a part of our history in violin pedagogy and should be of interest to
many.
Thanks and look forward to discussing more teaching and methodology! MOC
Mark O'Connor • I began
a new discussion thread. It addresses the great question of our day in violin.
Please come over and add your comments and answers!
THE FALLEN CLASSICAL VIOLINIST In the last 50 years, the role of the classical
violinist has dramatically declined when compared to the trajectory of every
other instrumentalist in classical music.
The reduced role of the classical violinist in the popular culture, goes without
saying unfortunately. But within classical music too? The art of playing the
violin as a great human achievement has not only suffered dramatically in the
last couple of generations, but the expectations of those classical string
players by their own audiences, has also diminished. A matter of fact I can’t
think of another achievement in the arts, or practically any other great human
endeavor that has suffered such decline in the last 50 years.
Jason Van Steenwyk • Hmm. I'm
sure John Williams, Bill Whelan and Danny Elfman would be very interested to
hear that 'nobody composes tonal music anymore!'
Mark O'Connor • I left
the personal insult thread by Suzuki people here and have started another
discussion on Linkedin if you are interested in continuing. If not, I have a
lot of important work to do ongoing. Just wrapped another summer string camp
with 150 students last night in Charleston (sold out). The "play
down" to end it was big time - monumental! Things are really taking off.
Let's do it!:
Mark O'Connor • And just
for my birthday!! - Some of these two forum threads including the opening salvo
by Freeman who began this thing, made it into my new Blog, out today! I thought
why not, let's let several thousand people read some of this stuff. I include
most all of my posts (all unedited) as I like what I wrote here especially.
Many of you did not make it into my blog of course, while still others perhaps
just one entry, but all in all - that may be OK! I just use first names only
except for Freeman, giving her top billing. Why not eh! Enjoy!
Mark O'Connor • "On
Tue August 13 2013, Adam Crane wrote:
Hey friends! I think Caroline's timing is old news. Can we all agree to say
little more and collectively say the same thing as in:"
Adam, sure. I posted the conclusion of the "resume" as a blog because
I thought it was good to share what teachers were saying to each other, a
frankly I thought I came off exactly how I want to be viewed, someone that has
strong convictions, proud of his work in the field and a staunch supporter for
change against the status quo. I was able to finish my latest Blog about how
Suzuki fraudulently used Casals as an endorsement, but that really concludes my
Suzuki Blogs actually. I am turning to write a series of articles on music
education in a major music educator's publication. The editor liked my blogs.
The Charleston O'Connor Method Camp was a big deal... Mayor proclamation, and a
beautiful film of us playing We Shall Overcome at the old Cigar Factory... The
site where in 1945, the all female factory work force went on strike for 5
months singing that song, and launching the Civil Rights movement. The Youtube
clip will be up tomorrow. The piece is in Book III. And something I didn't let
on as I was keeping it a secret as long as possible but word is getting out
from the last camp, but I am doing an edition of some Bach solo violin sonatas
with new bowings and fingerings to be included in Book IV and going forward. My
plan all along was to skip the 2nd tier of the European classical literature
for the beginning books as the American music was superior to it for the
beginning and intermediate stages because of the strong song forms, robust
phrasing, enduring rhythms and melodies, (even lyrics) harmonic accessibility
for creativity to take a hold and the amazing stylistic and cultural diversity
- then wait to introduce some solo Bach when it gets great, as in the more
advanced works. Equal to a We Shall Overcome Spiritual for a book 3 level or
Deep River, Amazing Grace, the blues, hoedown, ragtime, jazz etc! Hope you are
having a nice summer. Take care...
Mark O'Connor • The
series of articles that exposed Suzuki for who and what he is, has come to its
natural conclusion I believe. There is really no more for me to write on the
subject than I already have. My blog articles have included:
*Suzuki not supporting creativity/American music.
*Suzuki people discrediting my work
*How the classical violin has suffered in last 50 yrs
*Made up relationship with Einstein, invented "Dr." title in
education circles
*Dr. Suzuki was/is a cult, WWII era participation
*How John Kendall "evangelized" for profit, overlooked Suzuki's
training in Berlin, *Suzuki failed entrance exam at Berlin Conservatory
*Teacher's discussions
*Confessions of a former Suzuki Teacher
*Invented endorsements such as from Pablo Casals
So essentially it is done. However I may want to do an article on this new term
that is floating around with the fiddle crowd called "Fiddlebots" as
associated with Suzuki students who learn fiddling from their Suzuki teachers.
All rote-memorized-mimic fiddling as opposed to the creative old-time,
bluegrass, swing, Texas styles that I grew up playing. What a shame... these
players could not get a job even in a country band even though they have
adequate technique. You have to be creative, standing next to an electric
guitar player or pianist who can really improv and solo etc etc... That might
be another article I will have to do.
So, that is done... and it is there for educational purposes if anybody is
interested going forward. I do want to thank the several researches from around
the world, who were inspired to join in on months of research and following the
trail of Suzuki. Hundreds of exchanges if not thousands over the last year and
some. It has interested a lot of people who had suspected stuff, but the
on-line "war" from Suzuki teachers really caused some serious alarm
bells with many folks who knew that there was a cover up for them to come out
at me so angrily just because I don't like Suzuki. It was overreaction from
that crowed that came off as suspicious and lots of people saw it. If you feel
you have something that is great and it is already famous and established,
there is no need to attack the little guy that is making their way up the
ladder. Thanks all...
Mark O'Connor • August
1st, 2013, Charleston Post and Courier; "Student orchestra plays 'We Shall
Overcome' at Cigar Factory"
"On Thursday, students from the O'Connor Method Camp honored the strike of
Charleston tobacco workers 70 years ago. With bows raised, a group of about 50
from the camp played an orchestral version of "We Shall Overcome" at
the old East Bay Street Cigar Factory."
David Zethmayr • Gary,
video your S. recordings on 'cello, at your pedagogic tempi, and post them
wherever you like. If you're worried about the legalities, consider:
1. Most of the S. books are of music old enough to be out of copyright, and
hence performance rights are public domain.
2. Being sued would be for damages. Since you are not selling your recorded
performances, even those compositions original with S. (are there any?) won't
be the subject of damages to the performance rights owner. Damages are assessed
on lost revenue. Basing damages on loss of sales of books or loss of business
suffered by SAA-certified teachers would be vague and ludicrous.
3. When my sister, a S.-certified teacher, trots out her class in ticketed
performances, she's not required to pay performance royalties to SAA.
4. I'm a 'cellist, not qualified legal counsel. Check with someone who is.
David Zethmayr • Oh, yes,
one other thing, Gary. The Suzuki brand. There are two approaches:
* Don't use the word 'Suzuki' to label or describe your videos.
2) Use the name, perhaps un-capitalized, and in the same sentence announce that
your performances are not sanctioned, endorsed, or otherwise approved by S. S.
himself or the SAA.
And if you feel puckish, say also that Einstein and Casals would, however,
approve heartily, with tears running down their cheeks.
David Zethmayr • Another
thought, about your desire to get S. training for yourself.
William Westney, a concertizing pianist and teacher, has written an eye-opening
book about teaching music: "The Perfect Wrong Note". Among much other
practical wisdom, he details a method for freeing-up the rhythm and ensemble
senses in students, giving due credit to those he learned from. He probably
still conducts workshops.
Mark O'Connor • Mickey,
you are correct. Suzuki learned to play the violin at age 18 - not 3 nor 6
years old. He was eighteen. What worked for him (or did not work for him
because he both failed his entrance exam at the Berlin Conservatory at age 25
and failed to become a professional musician) was something he wanted 3
year-olds to do! A completely different kind and age of student from what he
imposed on a million 3 - 6 year-old children. All of this without any research
or personal experience into what makes great musical artistry. He just invented
this "rote-mimic-drill-repeat-memorize-ear-training" concept and how
that is supposed to give you a beautiful heart, and sold the heck out of it to
Americans like a used car salesman. It didn't work. We have the least amount of
creative classical violinists in the the history of violin. I am on the board of
the artist Kennedy Center and we try to think of famous classical violinists
for the Kennedy Center Honor these days... It is getting very difficult to come
up with anyone who is making a real difference out there on classical violin.
Hardly any real contributions during the last 50 years which is the Suzuki
era.
By contrast, before I did any mentoring, I was an expert with my materials.
Here is my lecture at UCLA.
Mark O'Connor
A Lecture on American Classical Music
From Schoenberg Hall at UCLA (Filmed in 2009)
Mark O'Connor, author of the O'Connor Method and a leader in The New School Of
American String Playing gives a lecture-music demonstration at UCLA.
Matthew Weiss • "Mickey,
you are correct. Suzuki learned to play the violin at age 18 - not 3 nor 6
years old. He was eighteen. What worked for him (or did not work for him
because he both failed his entrance exam at the Berlin Conservatory at age 25
and failed to become a professional musician) was something he wanted 3
year-olds to do! A completely different kind and age of student from what he
imposed on a million 3 - 6 year-old children. All of this without any research
or personal experience into what makes great musical artistry. He just invented
this "rote-mimic-drill-repeat-memorize-ear-training" concept and how
that is supposed to give you a beautiful heart, and sold the heck out of it to
Americans like a used car salesman. It didn't work. We have the least amount of
creative classical violinists in the the history of violin. I am on the board
of the artist Kennedy Center and we try to think of famous classical violinists
for the Kennedy Center Honor these days... It is getting very difficult to come
up with anyone who is making a real difference out there on classical violin.
Hardly any real contributions during the last 50 years which is the Suzuki
era."
---Mark O'Connor
Well so much for attempting to make peace.
Looks like Mark is back to "business as usual" with the Suzuki
bashing.
The thing that amazes me is that reputable companies such as Shar Products,
etc. continue to support this way of doing business by carrying Mark's
products.
If I were the owner of such store or publishing house, I certainly would not
want my brand associated with someone or organization that continues to behave
in such an unprofessional manner.
